Pardon me if this is a stupid question, but..... well, actually my father told me there are no stupid questions, only stupid answers
Could it be that the ribbon tweeter in the middle of the line source, as is on the Adyton's... are there to fill in some of the high frequency loss you otherwise would have and as such meaning, less eq need in the high frequency band?
That is excatly the reason for putting it there and Adyton dosent even roll of the Vifas, they only have a highpass for the tweeter.
The problem with such an arrangement is that there are only , in theory, one correct listening distance because the tweeter is a point source and the rest is line source. That meens the line source will only loose 3dB for every doubling of the distance and the pointsource looses 6 dB,
Koldby
The battle goes on!
The battle between my Cheap and Cheerful Full-range array with the Poineer 4" drivers and my Avebury system with the Mark Audio Alpair 12 goes on...
One thing is clear, I want to pursue this array idea more seriously.
The Avebury has the intricate, full bandwidth sound, with lots of details.
The Cheap and Cheerful puts you in the music. I really like that, and it would be a clear winner if it had the Downward Dynamic range of the Avebury. Yet we are comparing a 50 cent driver to an Enabled Mark Audio flag ship driver. So I am thinking a full-range line array with a better driver would be the best of both worlds! So my fear has been, that if I go the Vifa route, would I be always wondering if I should be more patient and save up for a higher performing driver...
Thanks Koldby, you answered many of my questions, as I enjoyed following your project on the "Stupid cheap line array" thread.
Naturally I was curious if you had moved on to wanting to try a different driver or not, but apparently you are so content with the Vifas, that you have not built your line source tweeter yet. It seems a sub-woofer is a must, especailly for movies, which I am willing to accept, becuase after all, my Avebury needs a good sub-woofer for movies!
What is Isopunkt? I would like to consider driver treatment for my current Cheap and Cheerful array, but want to stick with proven methods as I do not have extra drivers to fail forward on!
You also mention that your aluminum enclosures are too small. I am planning on building a cabinet for 25 drivers (in the shape of a tube) using birch plywood for the internals and solid wood laminated on the outside with each driver in its own enclosure. If you where to optimize your cabinet size, how big would you make the internal volume for each driver?
I have been looking at various drivers for a full-range array, mainly the Vifa, the Fountek 85 or 88, or the Mark Audio CHR-70.3.
I am surprised Scott Moose promotes the Fountek 85 over the 88. It certainly is more appealing to the pocket book.
Also, I have noticed that Mark Audio has created a modular line array cabinet with even a passive EQ circuit if one does not have an active EQ to use:
http://www.madisound.com/pdf/TheCHRArray-plan-250811.pdf
The modular concept allows one to build their array a piece at a time. Quite costly if you want the full 18 driver array, could buy a pair of B&G Rd-75's for that, although would have to build a sub-woofer system that can play up to 300 Hz, perhaps a line of 12 - 8" drivers. Agian getting up in $$$$!
Also, the fountek and MA's do have them big bessels! I know it does not make that much diference, I just like the idea of activating as much of the vertical surface as possible. The good old Vifa just seems to fit this application so well and it is affordable!
I just know you do not need to spend heaps of money to have fun, the Cheap and Cheerful project proves that!
God Bless,
Allen
The battle between my Cheap and Cheerful Full-range array with the Poineer 4" drivers and my Avebury system with the Mark Audio Alpair 12 goes on...
One thing is clear, I want to pursue this array idea more seriously.
The Avebury has the intricate, full bandwidth sound, with lots of details.
The Cheap and Cheerful puts you in the music. I really like that, and it would be a clear winner if it had the Downward Dynamic range of the Avebury. Yet we are comparing a 50 cent driver to an Enabled Mark Audio flag ship driver. So I am thinking a full-range line array with a better driver would be the best of both worlds! So my fear has been, that if I go the Vifa route, would I be always wondering if I should be more patient and save up for a higher performing driver...
Thanks Koldby, you answered many of my questions, as I enjoyed following your project on the "Stupid cheap line array" thread.
Naturally I was curious if you had moved on to wanting to try a different driver or not, but apparently you are so content with the Vifas, that you have not built your line source tweeter yet. It seems a sub-woofer is a must, especailly for movies, which I am willing to accept, becuase after all, my Avebury needs a good sub-woofer for movies!
What is Isopunkt? I would like to consider driver treatment for my current Cheap and Cheerful array, but want to stick with proven methods as I do not have extra drivers to fail forward on!
You also mention that your aluminum enclosures are too small. I am planning on building a cabinet for 25 drivers (in the shape of a tube) using birch plywood for the internals and solid wood laminated on the outside with each driver in its own enclosure. If you where to optimize your cabinet size, how big would you make the internal volume for each driver?
I have been looking at various drivers for a full-range array, mainly the Vifa, the Fountek 85 or 88, or the Mark Audio CHR-70.3.
I am surprised Scott Moose promotes the Fountek 85 over the 88. It certainly is more appealing to the pocket book.
Also, I have noticed that Mark Audio has created a modular line array cabinet with even a passive EQ circuit if one does not have an active EQ to use:
http://www.madisound.com/pdf/TheCHRArray-plan-250811.pdf
The modular concept allows one to build their array a piece at a time. Quite costly if you want the full 18 driver array, could buy a pair of B&G Rd-75's for that, although would have to build a sub-woofer system that can play up to 300 Hz, perhaps a line of 12 - 8" drivers. Agian getting up in $$$$!
Also, the fountek and MA's do have them big bessels! I know it does not make that much diference, I just like the idea of activating as much of the vertical surface as possible. The good old Vifa just seems to fit this application so well and it is affordable!
I just know you do not need to spend heaps of money to have fun, the Cheap and Cheerful project proves that!
God Bless,
Allen
This is very interesting info here
If you look to the experience from Roger Russel, who spent a lifetime building line sources, he made all sorts of the type, 2 way, 3 way, all kinds....
tweeter in the middle, no tweeter in the middle....
Ending up with the IDS-25 in the end as the best he ever did, probably simplicity is the thing here.
Probably the way to go is a simple FR line source with or without a tweeter in the middle, utilizing some sort of 3.5" - 4" driver that will mostly cover the range from approx 100Hz and up....
Still I wonder how this can work well with a tweeter in the middle, changing from line source to point source in the treble, and also how this affects phase/time, the phase of the treble must be very weird with these two topologies working within the same passband.....
In addition I would like to employ a line source subwoofer system that uses a range of 6.5" - 8" drivers in a transmission line, probably to be crossed around 125 - 150 Hz, using two these subs of course
Probably much easier to get this to integrate properly than dealing with crossovers higher up in frequency where it will be much more critical, audible and difficult to deal with, I think there are some few drivers out there that will fit to a system like this. Scan speak and Seas make some woofers that probably will work quite well like this, and if you employ 8 woofers in each sub the linear excursion limits will never even be close to exceeded
If you look to the experience from Roger Russel, who spent a lifetime building line sources, he made all sorts of the type, 2 way, 3 way, all kinds....
tweeter in the middle, no tweeter in the middle....
Ending up with the IDS-25 in the end as the best he ever did, probably simplicity is the thing here.
Probably the way to go is a simple FR line source with or without a tweeter in the middle, utilizing some sort of 3.5" - 4" driver that will mostly cover the range from approx 100Hz and up....
Still I wonder how this can work well with a tweeter in the middle, changing from line source to point source in the treble, and also how this affects phase/time, the phase of the treble must be very weird with these two topologies working within the same passband.....
In addition I would like to employ a line source subwoofer system that uses a range of 6.5" - 8" drivers in a transmission line, probably to be crossed around 125 - 150 Hz, using two these subs of course
Probably much easier to get this to integrate properly than dealing with crossovers higher up in frequency where it will be much more critical, audible and difficult to deal with, I think there are some few drivers out there that will fit to a system like this. Scan speak and Seas make some woofers that probably will work quite well like this, and if you employ 8 woofers in each sub the linear excursion limits will never even be close to exceeded
Last edited:
Not so, I only said that's what Adyton Audio appear to be using in their boxes.
The Fountek have a very tight bezel.
Put FF85wk on your (cost no object) short list.
dave
This seems right. Isn´t this also true for the upper frequency range in a fullrange line array?
I really don´t know, I´m just curious about the cornestones of line array design. So I mean no disrespect towards your stunning array build.
/Pontus
Thanks Guys
I stand corrected, Thanks
I'll do that. FF85wk is doable, sure it is a little more then the Vifa, but the cost is still with-in the reasonable range. The FF88ex is a whole nother story! I certainly like the look of the metal cone over the paper.
Allen
I stand corrected, Thanks
I'll do that. FF85wk is doable, sure it is a little more then the Vifa, but the cost is still with-in the reasonable range. The FF88ex is a whole nother story! I certainly like the look of the metal cone over the paper.
Allen
Opps, a little mix up on my part
Okay: Fountek has a FE85 and a FR88ex
Fostex has a FF85wk
So in other words, the Fostex FF85wk is a notch up in performance compared to the Fountek FR88ex, and costs less also. Price is comparible to the Mark Audio CHR-70.3. I like the bessel on the Fostex FF85 for this application.
It looks that the Fountek FE85 is comparible to the Vifa...
Oday that is enough mistakes for me for one day!
Time for some sleep
Allen
Okay: Fountek has a FE85 and a FR88ex
Fostex has a FF85wk
So in other words, the Fostex FF85wk is a notch up in performance compared to the Fountek FR88ex, and costs less also. Price is comparible to the Mark Audio CHR-70.3. I like the bessel on the Fostex FF85 for this application.
It looks that the Fountek FE85 is comparible to the Vifa...
Oday that is enough mistakes for me for one day!
Time for some sleep
Allen
many of you guys claim the ff85 is a notch up compared to the Fountek's, can you explain in which areas the Fostex betters the Fountek's? what's better about them?
Thanks
Harald
FF85 doesn't go as low, but has better DDR, more extended top, and lacks that grain/edge that many aluminum cone drivers have up top (particularily annoying for some of us).
I bought 24 FR88ex in the hopes of it filling the void left by the discontinuation of the original FF85k, they were seconded when the FF85wk came out. I still have 3 pair new in the box, bought at the pre-neo spike cost.
dave
I bought 24 FR88ex in the hopes of it filling the void left by the discontinuation of the original FF85k, they were seconded when the FF85wk came out. I still have 3 pair new in the box, bought at the pre-neo spike cost.
dave
Iospunkt is a tar product that is used on tar roofs to repair or something ...
It is pretty toxic and not awalable in Denmark, but you can get it from Germany. It hardens with UV light and is very good for resonanse control.
I dont remember the excact volumen, but check up on the IDS25 dimensions (I think you can find them in the "Stupid cheap..." tread) and usem them. I was stuck with the internal volumen of the alu-tubing an it was a little smaller.
Koldby
Probably, but why bother?
There is no lobing problems as long as you are at a sensible distance away and use small drivers.
I think you would create a lot more problems than you would solve.
Koldby
This might help some of you
I guess I missed this thread, I was involved in the stupid cheap line array chat though as I am one of those with plans to build me one.
I have the paper coned vifa's laying around (for over a year now) and a behringer EQ and lots of plans for an enclosure.
Just need to start building it. I do have the publishing fom Roger Russel and will send it to you guys on request. It has all the details you need including the wiring, internal volume and even EQ.
Here's my plans for my version:
made out of:
I do have a copy of the first publication as well.
I have had a conversation about my plans with Roger Russel trough email and he was very encouraging towards me to build this. He even send me a picture of the building stage of his prototype featuring a snake in the wild in his garage. He lives somewhere in Miami, I'm just glad we don't have those around where I live.
I guess I missed this thread, I was involved in the stupid cheap line array chat though as I am one of those with plans to build me one.
I have the paper coned vifa's laying around (for over a year now) and a behringer EQ and lots of plans for an enclosure.
Just need to start building it. I do have the publishing fom Roger Russel and will send it to you guys on request. It has all the details you need including the wiring, internal volume and even EQ.
Here's my plans for my version:
made out of:
I do have a copy of the first publication as well.
I have had a conversation about my plans with Roger Russel trough email and he was very encouraging towards me to build this. He even send me a picture of the building stage of his prototype featuring a snake in the wild in his garage
. He lives somewhere in Miami, I'm just glad we don't have those around where I live.
Last edited:
Well, you must have seen the thread that I started regarding this? No?
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/223124-omni-full-range-line-array.html
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.