Hey!
Instead of just using my old thread about my Mar-Kel70 build I thought I'd better start a new thread with the new subject.
The thing is, I want to build a pair of speakers. I have a pair of EL70eN at hand (thanks a lot Dave!) and I'm not afraid of using them in this project if they would suit me well.
What do I want to achieve?
I have a pair of Mar-Kel70 right now and I'm pretty satisfied with them, although I'd like a little more headroom in the bass region. For an example, I can't play bass-heavy songs as loud as I can play more "normal" songs. And I want a little more bass impact, the EL70 have no impact at all.
I don't have time to take any pictures of my room at the moment, but it is around 4x4m. The right channel speaker will be placed pretty near a corner (there's also a window on the side wall) and the left channel speaker will be placed next to the door to the room. It is around 2.3m between the corner and the door if I remember correctly, can measure that when I take pictures of the room.
Speakers I have looked at are some kind of OB with the EL70eN and Eminence Alpha 15a in h-frame. But the skilled people say that wont work well at all in my room. I have also looked at the EL166 MLTL but I feel like I can afford something a little more hi-fi.
I have a Reckhorn S-1 active XO that could be used. My current amplifier is a Harman Kardon HK3490 but that can be changed into something else if needed.
My budget for the build is maybe 3500SEK ($500) excluding material and if I can use the EL70eN.
Suggestions for amplification is welcome.
Instead of just using my old thread about my Mar-Kel70 build I thought I'd better start a new thread with the new subject.
The thing is, I want to build a pair of speakers. I have a pair of EL70eN at hand (thanks a lot Dave!) and I'm not afraid of using them in this project if they would suit me well.
What do I want to achieve?
I have a pair of Mar-Kel70 right now and I'm pretty satisfied with them, although I'd like a little more headroom in the bass region. For an example, I can't play bass-heavy songs as loud as I can play more "normal" songs. And I want a little more bass impact, the EL70 have no impact at all.
I don't have time to take any pictures of my room at the moment, but it is around 4x4m. The right channel speaker will be placed pretty near a corner (there's also a window on the side wall) and the left channel speaker will be placed next to the door to the room. It is around 2.3m between the corner and the door if I remember correctly, can measure that when I take pictures of the room.
Speakers I have looked at are some kind of OB with the EL70eN and Eminence Alpha 15a in h-frame. But the skilled people say that wont work well at all in my room. I have also looked at the EL166 MLTL but I feel like I can afford something a little more hi-fi.
I have a Reckhorn S-1 active XO that could be used. My current amplifier is a Harman Kardon HK3490 but that can be changed into something else if needed.
My budget for the build is maybe 3500SEK ($500) excluding material and if I can use the EL70eN.
Suggestions for amplification is welcome.
Now signed into the new thread 
The EL70 will make an excellent mid tweet, and their bass extension gives lots of options in terms of XO point.
Don't underestimate the EL166 just cause it is cheap. You might be able to scare up 4 SDX7 within your budget, that would help the size issue, but there are lots of good mid basses that will work... one that i haven't seen over here, but that Kurt @ HiQ uses is a Wavecor of similar size.
dave
The EL70 will make an excellent mid tweet, and their bass extension gives lots of options in terms of XO point.
Don't underestimate the EL166 just cause it is cheap. You might be able to scare up 4 SDX7 within your budget, that would help the size issue, but there are lots of good mid basses that will work... one that i haven't seen over here, but that Kurt @ HiQ uses is a Wavecor of similar size.
dave
ideas?
if suitable I would try the EL70 as a mid-tweet as suggested by Dave. Get a couple of amps from 41Hz.com, or at least one for the top end (perhaps a Amp6 variant) and use your HK for the bottom (use an active crossover). Get 2 good woofers/sub-woofers and build good enclosures for them, at an appropriate height to use as stands for small OBs or box enclosures for the EL70s. Done.
if suitable I would try the EL70 as a mid-tweet as suggested by Dave. Get a couple of amps from 41Hz.com, or at least one for the top end (perhaps a Amp6 variant) and use your HK for the bottom (use an active crossover). Get 2 good woofers/sub-woofers and build good enclosures for them, at an appropriate height to use as stands for small OBs or box enclosures for the EL70s. Done.
Rullknufs,
Your problem statement is quite similar to mine - love full-range but want to play some bass heavy songs/material without fear of driver over excursion, would like a bit more impact on such stuff too. Choice of mid-tweet for this experiment is EL70, I can try out CHR-70 also. For bass drivers I have black MA Woof #6 (same as EL166).
For amplification I am leaning towards good quality Class D.
Your problem statement is quite similar to mine - love full-range but want to play some bass heavy songs/material without fear of driver over excursion, would like a bit more impact on such stuff too. Choice of mid-tweet for this experiment is EL70, I can try out CHR-70 also. For bass drivers I have black MA Woof #6 (same as EL166).
For amplification I am leaning towards good quality Class D.
Now signed into the new thread
The EL70 will make an excellent mid tweet, and their bass extension gives lots of options in terms of XO point.
Don't underestimate the EL166 just cause it is cheap. You might be able to scare up 4 SDX7 within your budget, that would help the size issue, but there are lots of good mid basses that will work... one that i haven't seen over here, but that Kurt @ HiQ uses is a Wavecor of similar size.
dave
What enclosure/enclosures would you recommend?
Well, I think so. Europe-audio.com, oaudio.de and so on...
I don't need that super-deep bass. I have analyzed many tracks that I frequently listen to and I think that having a system f3 at like 35Hz would be well enough for me.
Amplificating that way sounds interesting, wouldn't cost me too much and I could still use the DAC in my HK.
I'd second Nanook's advice on amplifiers, and suggest you try a couple of tapped horns.
I've never heard bass like it - crossed them to some 12" coaxials (of 98dB@1w), fed the 12"s 10w per side, and the tapped horns just went with it, in a rather big room (say 10m by 20m, 2.5m ceilings). Played this, as it has some pretty deep stuff on a double bass.
They do have a flip side: you won't be able to cross over as high as direct-radiating woofers, so the little FR driver would suffer more excursion.
Just thought I'd put that out there
Chris
I've never heard bass like it - crossed them to some 12" coaxials (of 98dB@1w), fed the 12"s 10w per side, and the tapped horns just went with it, in a rather big room (say 10m by 20m, 2.5m ceilings). Played this, as it has some pretty deep stuff on a double bass.
They do have a flip side: you won't be able to cross over as high as direct-radiating woofers, so the little FR driver would suffer more excursion.
Just thought I'd put that out there
Chris
Hi zman01,Rullknufs...all
Reading this thread, I searched MA #6 in my computer and found a Zman-folder with sim. suggestions that seems not to be sent? Don't know for which tread but I guess they were targeting to extend FR-drivers?
Here they are again?:
b
Attachments
Well, I wouldn't mind a tapped horn but my main goal is to achieve better performance and "pressure" in the 40-100Hz region.
One thing I came to think of today was starting with building a pair of speaker with the EL70eN and some woofer to cover down to maybe 50Hz or something and then build two tapped horns and place next to (on the inside) of the main speakers, and they cover like 60Hz and down.
But TH wont be for now. For now I'll just aim for going down to 35-40 maybe and then later on add tapped horns if I feel for it.
One thing I came to think of today was starting with building a pair of speaker with the EL70eN and some woofer to cover down to maybe 50Hz or something and then build two tapped horns and place next to (on the inside) of the main speakers, and they cover like 60Hz and down.
But TH wont be for now. For now I'll just aim for going down to 35-40 maybe and then later on add tapped horns if I feel for it.
Hi zman01,Rullknufs...all
Reading this thread, I searched MA #6 in my computer and found a Zman-folder with sim. suggestions that seems not to be sent? Don't know for which tread but I guess they were targeting to extend FR-drivers?
Here they are again?:
b
Bjorno,
IIRC they were in a TH thread... TTQWT with EL166 turns out to be a pretty big box. WAF is getting the way of trying that combination. There is also the small matter of corner loading it.
Thanks for the sims!
-Zia
Rullnuffs,
AFAIK tapped horns can play from 30-80 Hz range; TTQWT probably a bit higher. I feel tempted to put a EL166 in a BIB and see how it works...
I'm cheap...
...or more correctly poor
Even if I had the means to do whatever I wanted, I still believe in utilizing as much existing equipment that one might have on hand rather than buy yourself a solution by default. To me that seems contrary to the spirit of diy.
I can attest that the 41Hz amps do in-fact sound very good. "panomaniac" (Michael Mardis) who was one of the first out there on the Interweb to embrace the Tripath amps (not sure if he still has the T-amp webpage) has suggested that he likes this amplifier very much. I don't know the particulars about your HK, but "typically" a 10:1 ratio for amplification for midbass: fullrange (or non-woofer in a multiway) power has always served me well. So for the EL70/mid-bass I think something in the neighbourhood of 10-15 watts (or less) per channel of good amplification for the full-ranger (or mid-tweet) and 100-150 watts per channel for the mid-bass section. I know this seems like a lot of juice, but this "rule of thumb" has served me well. The fact that I have 3 or 4 amplifiers in-house in this power range doesn't really hurt either.
I suppose that lower powered amplifiers could be used for the bottom end, as long as the level to each amp can be adjusted, sort of like a built in BSC if close to the correct frequency. Something with a power ratio of 5:1 for mid-tweet: mid-bass could serve in many cases, but I personally would not go lower unless the top end amp was say 20 Watts/ch or larger.
A relatively inexpensive route is to purchase a couple of good plate amps with built-in crossovers (line level) an level/phase adjustments., if something comes along. I've used the M&K plate amps available at Apex Jr. to very good effect in the Spirits loudspeaker project. I think USD$280 gets you 2 amps capable of the demands of almost any system.
...or more correctly poor
Even if I had the means to do whatever I wanted, I still believe in utilizing as much existing equipment that one might have on hand rather than buy yourself a solution by default. To me that seems contrary to the spirit of diy.
I can attest that the 41Hz amps do in-fact sound very good. "panomaniac" (Michael Mardis) who was one of the first out there on the Interweb to embrace the Tripath amps (not sure if he still has the T-amp webpage) has suggested that he likes this amplifier very much. I don't know the particulars about your HK, but "typically" a 10:1 ratio for amplification for midbass: fullrange (or non-woofer in a multiway) power has always served me well. So for the EL70/mid-bass I think something in the neighbourhood of 10-15 watts (or less) per channel of good amplification for the full-ranger (or mid-tweet) and 100-150 watts per channel for the mid-bass section. I know this seems like a lot of juice, but this "rule of thumb" has served me well. The fact that I have 3 or 4 amplifiers in-house in this power range doesn't really hurt either.
I suppose that lower powered amplifiers could be used for the bottom end, as long as the level to each amp can be adjusted, sort of like a built in BSC if close to the correct frequency. Something with a power ratio of 5:1 for mid-tweet: mid-bass could serve in many cases, but I personally would not go lower unless the top end amp was say 20 Watts/ch or larger.
A relatively inexpensive route is to purchase a couple of good plate amps with built-in crossovers (line level) an level/phase adjustments., if something comes along. I've used the M&K plate amps available at Apex Jr. to very good effect in the Spirits loudspeaker project. I think USD$280 gets you 2 amps capable of the demands of almost any system.
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enough power?
If a system is bi-amped (an amp for the EL70s and one for 2 woofers)and the frequency is limited to each driver (as in using a cross-over), you might be surprised at how much power bass drivers require to even be moved as compared to a smaller full-range. Usually by the cross-over frequency the impedance of a full-ranger drops to a much more benign load for the amp, so current capability/power demands are much lower.
I'm certainly not an "expert", just stating what I use as guidelines. The dynamic headroom is most often required by the bass drivers. And 100dB at a listening position is really uite loud (louder than one imagines).
If a system is bi-amped (an amp for the EL70s and one for 2 woofers)and the frequency is limited to each driver (as in using a cross-over), you might be surprised at how much power bass drivers require to even be moved as compared to a smaller full-range. Usually by the cross-over frequency the impedance of a full-ranger drops to a much more benign load for the amp, so current capability/power demands are much lower.
I'm certainly not an "expert", just stating what I use as guidelines. The dynamic headroom is most often required by the bass drivers. And 100dB at a listening position is really uite loud (louder than one imagines).
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I'd use this. I just may one day. Or the bigger brother.
http://www.solen.ca/pdf/sb/sb23nrxs458.pdf
Silverhair is using some peerless driver in the mark audio forum that looks promising.
http://www.solen.ca/pdf/sb/sb23nrxs458.pdf
Silverhair is using some peerless driver in the mark audio forum that looks promising.
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An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
The usual mess in my room
But there you can see the four corners of the room.I was thinking of placing the speakers at about the same place as they are now and if I build a pair of TH I will place them on the insides.
Does it have to be FAST?
How about utilizing both the EL70s from the Mar-Kels and your new EL70en drivers combined in a larger box (Calhoun, Coniston^2, microTower, etc.)? I think you might be surprised how much bass you can get from these implementations of the EL70(en) drivers (especially with corner/wall loading). I toyed with the idea of helper woofers or sub(s) but after re-EQing realized that I just have no need for them.
How about utilizing both the EL70s from the Mar-Kels and your new EL70en drivers combined in a larger box (Calhoun, Coniston^2, microTower, etc.)? I think you might be surprised how much bass you can get from these implementations of the EL70(en) drivers (especially with corner/wall loading). I toyed with the idea of helper woofers or sub(s) but after re-EQing realized that I just have no need for them.
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