home theater w/ceiling mount fullrange

[rny1diya]

gents,

ok, i have an opportunity to take a chunk of the basement (15 x 25) and make a home theater 7.1 setup. i can do all the appropriate management of the space for reflections, etc etc, except, i have to put the speakers (except for the subs) in the ceiling.
so, the question:
i suspect i would use 6" or 6.5" ceiling mounted drivers; i did another room with drivers from partsxpress (and the sound wasn't bad - these were the 6" driver with center mounted fabric dome tweeter), but what if i used something like the Mark Audio drivers in a solid cylinder 6" deep? sort of making a hi-value Gallo Acoustics type device. there was a thread here on the partsxpress ps-180, but it seems the kevlar cone sort of chased folks away.

the amps could be anything: pass aleph, crown d75a, some of those abletec switching amps -- this is not for gaming nor for serious audio. so i guess the drama is around headroom and dynamics. i would probably drive this through an HTPC with the ASUS Xonar sound card which manages full dolby digital and i think the sub crossover while nominally at 80hz can be adjusted.

i've been kicking around options, but can't quite seem to settle on a single approach. what have you tried?
i follow one fellow from denmark, he has done a lot with room acoustics, and he is suggesting not to worry -- spend the effort modelling the room and deal with reflections, etc -- he feels anything reasonably decent in the speaker/amp category will be benefit substantially with a proper room environment.

some thoughts please?

thanks,
ron

[chrisb]

Ceiling mount for rear / side surrounds and front height could work well enough, but I think doing so for the main front row would seriously distort the connection between sonic and visual imaging. Would there be any way to in-wall mount the front row?

With modern bass management and EQ etc, and dedicated woofers, Mark Audio drivers can certainly work very well in a 5 or 7.1 system . Several of the smaller models (Alpair 7, EL/ CHP/CHR70) require very little enclosure volume when used in such an application. If you're able to frame new front wall in 2x6 rather than 2x4, you could even get away with the Alpair10. But regardless of the made / model of drivers selected, I'd certainly consider in-walls.

[GM]

Hmm, this is a big HT and just looking at my ~16 x 24 ft media room I'm at a loss as to how 'FR' drivers or even coax in the ceiling will work well enough since typically in DD or DTS, the surrounds are pointed down at an angle to the opposite sides and of course the noted problem with the mains, so any particular reason why all the mains, surrounds can't be placed in an angled soffit at the wall ceiling junctures? Or if in the ceiling, angled boxes protruding from it?

Even then, the drivers will need to be fairly large to get the desired pattern control over such a large area, not to mention the power handling required.

WRT to subs, they ideally need to be within 1/4 WL of the XO point with some folks being able to tolerate up to ~1/2 WL for an 80 Hz XO or ~7 ft away max. This could pose a bit of a problem with a redirected bass managed system if you don't adhere to Dr. Geddes' solution of multiple subs scattered around the room with one up on the wall to deal with the room's 3rd dimension.

GM

[skeeter99]

I agree with Chris, you can dampen the room all you want but if you have your front stage pointed down from the ceiling you'll get sound but its going to be all sorts of messed up (that's the technical term ). If you're building out the room and you HAVE to put in-walls/ceilings in, at the minimum do in walls for your front soundstage. Maybe even consider doing some of the CHR arrays (http://www.madisound.com/pdf/TheCHRA...lan-250811.pdf) and building them into the walls for your fronts. A trio of three CHR-70.3's with some good bass management and crossed over to a sub(s) would be the makings to a great start for a dedicated room. It'll get you the increased SPL and power handling needed for high impact HT setup while giving you far better imaging/soundstage/dynamics than in-ceiling speakers pointed down will pretty much ever give you. I would strongly recommend NOT doing in-ceilings for your fronts especially since you're doing a new room.

Scott

[chrisb]

Ron - sorry but I think you're simply not gonna to find the easy answer you're looking for

[rny1diya]

guys,

a little more conversation, ok?
here's my current system:

tv-room:
1. about 12 X20
2. 7.1, lexicon dc-2, 4 crown d60, 4pr partsxpress in-ceiling 6" w/center mount soft-dome tweeter ($39.95/pr), infinity rs12 powered servo sub
3. yikes, you say -- ok. lexicon engineer said go for consistency (same amps/same speakers) and you will have balance; then upgrade when you have more money
4. 1 crown died, so now my center channel is a phanthom center; i have to admit, it sounds good. but i have no other reference - and most stereo shops seem to go for volume, not quality, so i stopped visiting them.

the basement project:
1. ceiling joists are open, so i could put TL's in the ceiling between the joists
2. the screen wall has the waste pipe running diagonally down across the wall; so i need to build out anyway to cover it -- so i could put subs against the wall behind the screen and the center channel under the screen

so, to your points:

chrisb: in-wall mount/front -- yes, doable, although i thought an MTM type center channel had comb effects?

GM: angled -- sure, yamaha/polk/kef etc i think all have in-ceiling that can be angled; i suppose i could also use thngs like the Gallo Nucleus (although i never heard them). 1/4WL -- aha, excellent, never thought of that -- this is 1/4WL for the sub from the center channel? i'll go read Geddes. thankyou for that.

skeeter99: CHR i will need to read and then get back to you with some questions.

ok then -- this is great. what i need to do is turn these ideas into something a 'constraint' list. the list is sort of 'good practice' that needs to be considered and satisfied in order to have a decent home theater platform. that way i have some rules to consider in the design.

i'll do my research and then present a 'package' and maybe you folks can give some feedback? that would be great.

thanks for the time to answer.
too soon to give up just yet.

ron

[mrybczyn]

I've been running an el-cheapo projector and a pair of discontinued 10" wide rangers in the ceiling of my basement for years... For the amp I use a cheap tripath. The wide range speakers don't have much treble, but I find that it gives the room a more old school theater feel.
Cheers,
Mitch

[Bigun]

I have tried these combos. Front L and R really benefit from being floor standers. Rear surround mounted on the ceiling is ok at best. I have had mine on the ceiling this way for over a year. Recently I put in surround floor standers and I am MUCH happier. If you are serious about the sound don't expect too much from ceiling mount, use them only if aesthetics are more important than sound. The issue is that you are usually too aware that the sound is coming from too high above your seating position and it also loses some of the surround effect.

[GM]

FWIW, just been made aware of these and while a two way, it looks like it might be a viable in ceiling/surface mount/suspended solution for all channels: http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/suppor...1646&doctype=3

GM