hello everybody,
First of all sorry for my English.
Second, congratulations for this great forum.
I'm new in this hifi diy things so please be pacient
I'm looking for some full range speakers and i've got some questions but I'm not sure if they make sense,
-if one purpose of fullrange speakers is not being out of phase why should I go for back loaded horn? doesn't the sound comes out of phase? the distance traveled by the sound from the drive and from his back is not the same...
-from all the designs I've seen TQWT is the one that makes more sense to me
but I'm too confused with what driver to choose...
first I thought of fostex fx120 but then I listened to some fostex monitors NX-6A and I really hated the sound of them, they were very metallic, not soft at all, so I really got scared about buying these fx120, then I saw the the tang band drivers but I read somewhere that the w8-1808 where not suitable for TQWT, but didn't said why...
-These are just a few of my questions...
thanks for your patience
just for the record, I like all kinds of music but some kinds I just listen in good systems like opera, my father has a pair of b&w 805, and I really like them, but I don't have the money (or the status ) , neither is fun to buy something already done...
I like a "relatively powerfull" bass, but what I really like is a fast stopping bass (that doesn't get too much around himself) and detailed treble
thanks
bernardo
First of all sorry for my English.
Second, congratulations for this great forum.
I'm new in this hifi diy things so please be pacient
I'm looking for some full range speakers and i've got some questions but I'm not sure if they make sense,
-if one purpose of fullrange speakers is not being out of phase why should I go for back loaded horn? doesn't the sound comes out of phase? the distance traveled by the sound from the drive and from his back is not the same...
-from all the designs I've seen TQWT is the one that makes more sense to me
but I'm too confused with what driver to choose...
first I thought of fostex fx120 but then I listened to some fostex monitors NX-6A and I really hated the sound of them, they were very metallic, not soft at all, so I really got scared about buying these fx120, then I saw the the tang band drivers but I read somewhere that the w8-1808 where not suitable for TQWT, but didn't said why...
-These are just a few of my questions...
thanks for your patience
just for the record, I like all kinds of music but some kinds I just listen in good systems like opera, my father has a pair of b&w 805, and I really like them, but I don't have the money (or the status ) , neither is fun to buy something already done...
I like a "relatively powerfull" bass, but what I really like is a fast stopping bass (that doesn't get too much around himself) and detailed treble
thanks
bernardo
A few thoughts re Fostex drivers / etc:
Fostex is one of the larger audio transducer manufacturers around and produces a substantial line of loudspeaker drivers for DIY/OEM markets as well as finished speaker models, using a wide range of design goals, engineering details and combinations material technologies. They don't all sound the same, and probably very few folks have sampled even a small percentage of the entire spectrum.
The models you heard were a self-powered small near field monitor - there could be lots of reasons you didn't care for what you heard, not all of which might be entirely the speaker's fault - and that shouldn't dissuade you from considering Fostex for a DIY project.
As you mentioned the FX120 - this is a driver that many folks here have had experience with, myself included, and price considerations aside (it's not what I would classify as "entry level"), it's quite suitable for a DIY build - I've only heard it in a couple of designs other than the "factory recommended" DBR. For the FX120, you might want to take a look at this one:
Fostex FX120 DIY ML-TQWT (Transmission Line) Speaker Project
disclaimer: I could be accused of being a long time fan-boy for Fostex - there are lots of other manufacturers of very decent sounding, affordable drivers for FR DIY speaker projects - Dayton, Fountek, Mark-Audio, Tang-Band, and numerous others that could be suggested to you.
Fostex is one of the larger audio transducer manufacturers around and produces a substantial line of loudspeaker drivers for DIY/OEM markets as well as finished speaker models, using a wide range of design goals, engineering details and combinations material technologies. They don't all sound the same, and probably very few folks have sampled even a small percentage of the entire spectrum.
The models you heard were a self-powered small near field monitor - there could be lots of reasons you didn't care for what you heard, not all of which might be entirely the speaker's fault - and that shouldn't dissuade you from considering Fostex for a DIY project.
As you mentioned the FX120 - this is a driver that many folks here have had experience with, myself included, and price considerations aside (it's not what I would classify as "entry level"), it's quite suitable for a DIY build - I've only heard it in a couple of designs other than the "factory recommended" DBR. For the FX120, you might want to take a look at this one:
Fostex FX120 DIY ML-TQWT (Transmission Line) Speaker Project
disclaimer: I could be accused of being a long time fan-boy for Fostex - there are lots of other manufacturers of very decent sounding, affordable drivers for FR DIY speaker projects - Dayton, Fountek, Mark-Audio, Tang-Band, and numerous others that could be suggested to you.
thanks for the fast reply.
that fostex project was what made me think about fx120 I really think it's a nice project
I know it's a strange question to ask but what's your opinion about the fx120 drivers?
Although it's my first diy speaker project i'm always looking for more in terms of sound so I really want something good, I'm really patient, this project started in my mind 4 months ago and I'm trying to read as much as I can.
I speak a lot with sound engineers friends but they mix hifi with stage sound and I'm more and more confused each time...
what speakers would you advise me I think I can go up to 400€ but is it worth it or is this kind of price some muddy terrain between HiFi (lowther) and Cost-Effect (like the fx120)
that fostex project was what made me think about fx120 I really think it's a nice project
I know it's a strange question to ask but what's your opinion about the fx120 drivers?
Although it's my first diy speaker project i'm always looking for more in terms of sound so I really want something good, I'm really patient, this project started in my mind 4 months ago and I'm trying to read as much as I can.
I speak a lot with sound engineers friends but they mix hifi with stage sound and I'm more and more confused each time...
what speakers would you advise me I think I can go up to 400€ but is it worth it or is this kind of price some muddy terrain between HiFi (lowther) and Cost-Effect (like the fx120)
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not strange question at all - much of these forum posts deal with intangible subjective opinions -
I quite like the FX120, and while I haven't heard it in the design cited, am reasonably confident I' could live with them.
At the risk of offending any "sound engineers" -(whether of the recording / mixing, Public Address / live concert sound, or home audio system varieties), the reason many of us DIYers spend decades in this hobby - often after many more consuming commercial products - is dissatisfaction with same.
What is considered a "cost-effective" driver certainly varies among individuals, and often due to vagaries of global marketing/pricing. The FX120 retails in US/Canada for approx $125 ea - there are several approximately same sized drivers within the Fostex line that can perform very well in an easily constructed enclosure for less than half that amount - the first that come to mind would be the FE126E or FF125WK. I've heard both, and the former really wants a BLH enclosure, while the latter works very well in a moderate sized vented enclosure, perhaps something very much like the MLTL posted earlier - although dimensions would need to be revisited.
What you say is true. Do consider that a standard TQWT is a variation on a tapped horn. As well, most small horns get the lowest parts of their range from TL action, so these 2 designs are not far removed from each other. Mass-Loading a TQWT (as in the link from Chris), restricts the terminus bandwidth and makes it much more of a TL.
FX120 is a fine driver. It won't go as low, or provide as much LF grunt as W8-1808 (which should be out of your budget range anyway), but i'd give it the lead everywhere else. (for the price difference a pair of nice woofers could be added, if you really need the bass weight). 1808 should be workable in an ML-TQWT but will be big.
To really help out, you'll need to answer the standard room size, amplifier, listening sytle questions.
dave
thanks for all the answers, I'm quite tempted to go for something like the fostex fx120 ML-TQWT but adapted to the TB w8-1808, the impression I have is that with this kind of case design the bass will stay more controlled/dry , is this true?
as to the speakers are these a good choice or are there other options for these amount of money?
as I said a really clean bass is what I like, and (like most of us) a linear sound trough mids and HF.
as for the room size, amp and listening style,
-well, I have a old granite house with a big living room ( 5x12 meters) where I want to put these..
-I really don't have a good amp but that will be my next diy project, although I've seen some interesting things on ebay, "topping tp40 or tp60" I'm curious about these.
- My listening style goes from Opera to Classic Music, Dead can dance, Lhasa, Jazz, World Music etc
thank you
Bernardo
as to the speakers are these a good choice or are there other options for these amount of money?
as I said a really clean bass is what I like, and (like most of us) a linear sound trough mids and HF.
as for the room size, amp and listening style,
-well, I have a old granite house with a big living room ( 5x12 meters) where I want to put these..
-I really don't have a good amp but that will be my next diy project, although I've seen some interesting things on ebay, "topping tp40 or tp60" I'm curious about these.
- My listening style goes from Opera to Classic Music, Dead can dance, Lhasa, Jazz, World Music etc
thank you
Bernardo
Start from scratch is a better description than adapt. Only the idea of the basic folding can be retained.
dave
For a room that size and your listening tastes, I'd suggest that you might want to consider other driver / enclosure styles - this sounds like a room eminently suited to a larger BLH and more efficient driver - i.e. FE166E / BIB / Vulcan etc.
Woden Design | Victor
as to amps, these babies don't need much more than 10-15W to get started - how far beyond depends on the room and your pain threshold
I did some experimenting with FX 120 speakers. I was tempted to build a T-line enclosure but the author’s review concerning the bass was worrisome. However, I do plan on building a pair one day.
Too much to type but the cabinets shown work well; e.g. fantastic bass, mid and highs. The imaging is almost eerie, (my eyes keep looking at a blank wall). There are actually 8 chambers, four per side, also 4 drivers are used; one pair forward, one pair back.
The speakers are not metallic sounding at all; many have said that they need 6 months to break in (which these have). I will say, the FX120 are very nice; not the easiest speaker to work with, although it will perform nicely.
Too much to type but the cabinets shown work well; e.g. fantastic bass, mid and highs. The imaging is almost eerie, (my eyes keep looking at a blank wall). There are actually 8 chambers, four per side, also 4 drivers are used; one pair forward, one pair back.
The speakers are not metallic sounding at all; many have said that they need 6 months to break in (which these have). I will say, the FX120 are very nice; not the easiest speaker to work with, although it will perform nicely.
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without pumping Dave's and Chris' egos too much...
bernardodda: You would be well advised to follow their advice. They have built more loudspeaker types with various drivers than pretty much any folks out there. They sell the Mark Audio eN which are individually measured, matched and modified. You may have noticed neither mentioned this. They do not pander or elicit sales on the forum (there is a P10 Forum here), but you will be well served if you seek out their drivers.
I haven't checked pricing (lately),but I am sure there is a driver that could offer you great performance well within your budget. I must also plead with you to make enclosures with the best material you can afford. Many of the designs suitable for full-range drivers can be constructed using a single sheet of good quality that is without voids) marine grade plywood or similar. (If you must use MDF, please paint both the interior and exterior using automotive lacquer or similar, it is the easiest way to get MDF to sound good).
One design you may consider is the Castle style DTQWT (Dual Tuned Quarter Wave Transmission line). I haven't heard any DIY versions, but based on "sound" principles, these should sound great. I am very familiar with Castle Acoustic loudspeakers and own a set of the old Durham 900 loudspeakers, which I will most likely keep forever, mainly due to the fact that they express music so well. They always "take me home" in terms of giving me a consistent reference to compare others loudspeakers to. I have always wanted a pair of the Howard S2 or Winchesters, which are Dual Tuned Third Wave Transmission lines. The Castle style DTQWT speaker has garnered a pretty substantial following here on the diyaudio site The only real additional cost is slightly more material and a second set of drivers. If you choose the least expensive option, you should be able to get them (2 pairs of drivers) to Portugal for under €300, and still have about €100 left for cabinet materials, wire and hardware. Not sure if that can be done, but perhaps Dave could "help you out" a little .
bernardodda: You would be well advised to follow their advice. They have built more loudspeaker types with various drivers than pretty much any folks out there. They sell the Mark Audio eN which are individually measured, matched and modified. You may have noticed neither mentioned this. They do not pander or elicit sales on the forum (there is a P10 Forum here), but you will be well served if you seek out their drivers.
I haven't checked pricing (lately),but I am sure there is a driver that could offer you great performance well within your budget. I must also plead with you to make enclosures with the best material you can afford. Many of the designs suitable for full-range drivers can be constructed using a single sheet of good quality that is without voids) marine grade plywood or similar. (If you must use MDF, please paint both the interior and exterior using automotive lacquer or similar, it is the easiest way to get MDF to sound good).
One design you may consider is the Castle style DTQWT (Dual Tuned Quarter Wave Transmission line). I haven't heard any DIY versions, but based on "sound" principles, these should sound great. I am very familiar with Castle Acoustic loudspeakers and own a set of the old Durham 900 loudspeakers, which I will most likely keep forever, mainly due to the fact that they express music so well. They always "take me home" in terms of giving me a consistent reference to compare others loudspeakers to. I have always wanted a pair of the Howard S2 or Winchesters, which are Dual Tuned Third Wave Transmission lines. The Castle style DTQWT speaker has garnered a pretty substantial following here on the diyaudio site The only real additional cost is slightly more material and a second set of drivers. If you choose the least expensive option, you should be able to get them (2 pairs of drivers) to Portugal for under €300, and still have about €100 left for cabinet materials, wire and hardware. Not sure if that can be done, but perhaps Dave could "help you out" a little
.
Lacquer the inside/outside, there’s something I never would have thought of. I assume it makes the surfaces harder/ more reflective. Is that recommendation for MDF sub woofers boxes also?[/QUOTE]
the lacquer / varnish / shellac etc is intended to mitigate against potential problems with moisture by sealing interior surfaces
to be honest, I've not yet encountered any of the problems associated with moisture ( panel movement swelling/damage to finishes etc) on enclosures inhabiting relatively normal interior home environments
the lacquer / varnish / shellac etc is intended to mitigate against potential problems with moisture by sealing interior surfaces
to be honest, I've not yet encountered any of the problems associated with moisture ( panel movement swelling/damage to finishes etc) on enclosures inhabiting relatively normal interior home environments
Oh movement…there is a cabinetmaker “trick” if there’s a concern : Kerf cut the adjacent panel. Easy to do e.g. set blade height thickness of wood, make a pass 1/16”. [Sample pic]
The kerf cut will “lock” them and keep the edges from moving (with glue and/or screws).
I did have a small triangle pair of MDF speakers in an outdoor gazebo for 15 years and we have a wide range of weather here in MD: 10 – 101 degree temp range / high summer humidity, and they did fine. I did have to sand re-paint them, but for the most part they did very well; there are back in the HT now (they did not have a kerf cut).
It is a very good idea to seal them up, inside and out, you can use can use wood glue, mixed 50% - 50% with water.
The kerf cut will “lock” them and keep the edges from moving (with glue and/or screws).
I did have a small triangle pair of MDF speakers in an outdoor gazebo for 15 years and we have a wide range of weather here in MD: 10 – 101 degree temp range / high summer humidity, and they did fine. I did have to sand re-paint them, but for the most part they did very well; there are back in the HT now (they did not have a kerf cut).
It is a very good idea to seal them up, inside and out, you can use can use wood glue, mixed 50% - 50% with water.
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Thanks everyone for the answers and tips..
As for the material I was thinking of using HDF instead of MDF, I thought it would be a better choice, since I can't find birch plywood in Portugal.
chrisb thank for the idea I was really tempted but while reading this forum I became aware that this won't be my last speaker built so I think I'll start with something smaller so I can learn with my mistakes
ODougbo I don't really get how those cabinets are made on the inside, and thanks for the Kerf cut tip
from what I read maybe the
Fostex FX120 DIY ML-TQWT (Transmission Line) Speaker Project
project is a good starting point in compromise between bass depth and bass control..
the DTQWT type needs two drivers and is tempting but out of budget, thanks anyway
As for the material I was thinking of using HDF instead of MDF, I thought it would be a better choice, since I can't find birch plywood in Portugal.
chrisb thank for the idea I was really tempted but while reading this forum I became aware that this won't be my last speaker built so I think I'll start with something smaller so I can learn with my mistakes
ODougbo I don't really get how those cabinets are made on the inside, and thanks for the Kerf cut tip
from what I read maybe the
Fostex FX120 DIY ML-TQWT (Transmission Line) Speaker Project
project is a good starting point in compromise between bass depth and bass control..
the DTQWT type needs two drivers and is tempting but out of budget, thanks anyway
mods: this is NOT "why not MDF"...
Most here know of my "anti"-MDF sentiments. I will not restate them.The most significant is the time, effort and $$ required to adequately treat the MDF to make it suitable (in my opinion).
I did further research and it appears as though Totem uses borosilicate soundproofing. This is a hardening compound/paint that has 80% (by mass I assume) titanium. They also use miter lock joinery. Somehow I was under the impression that they used the same finishes on the interior as the exterior. I was wrong . ODougbo: a good idea. I think I'll give that a try next time.
chrisb: as usual, right on top of all things construction (and sound-wise too ). Question: what's your experience using splines in a 45° joint and BB ply?
One can always make a reasonable facsimile of the "Totem solution" using an automotive spray-on soundproofing/box-liner/undercoat product or paint the interior and dope the paint up with some sand or ground glass. Another option is as TerryO pointed out, the "Speakerlab solution". This is a 2 layer enclosure, using plywood (I assume voidless) as the enclosure and MDF as interior lining. Cork might be another interesting option. Even cheaper still is to paint the interior and then attach felt or Dynamat (or similar) to the interior.
Back on topic:
If one uses a proven, well executed design for a first project, then the likelihood of a successful outcome is increased. We all start somewhere. I typically don't enjoy designing loudspeakers much. There are others who have so much more experience than I do. I did design a hybrid OB/subwoofer system that absolutely kicks it, but I suspect I was pretty lucky. I still haven't measured the system as I have no measurement tools (and that's another reason I don't design loudspeakers), and my audio partner currently has them in storage. Whether a single driver system, multi-way, or multiple driver project, I do love TL's, almost as much as OBs.
Most here know of my "anti"-MDF sentiments. I will not restate them.The most significant is the time, effort and $$ required to adequately treat the MDF to make it suitable (in my opinion).
I did further research and it appears as though Totem uses borosilicate soundproofing. This is a hardening compound/paint that has 80% (by mass I assume) titanium. They also use miter lock joinery. Somehow I was under the impression that they used the same finishes on the interior as the exterior. I was wrong
. ODougbo: a good idea. I think I'll give that a try next time.chrisb: as usual, right on top of all things construction (and sound-wise too
). Question: what's your experience using splines in a 45° joint and BB ply?One can always make a reasonable facsimile of the "Totem solution" using an automotive spray-on soundproofing/box-liner/undercoat product or paint the interior and dope the paint up with some sand or ground glass. Another option is as TerryO pointed out, the "Speakerlab solution". This is a 2 layer enclosure, using plywood (I assume voidless) as the enclosure and MDF as interior lining. Cork might be another interesting option. Even cheaper still is to paint the interior and then attach felt or Dynamat (or similar) to the interior.
Back on topic:
If one uses a proven, well executed design for a first project, then the likelihood of a successful outcome is increased. We all start somewhere. I typically don't enjoy designing loudspeakers much. There are others who have so much more experience than I do. I did design a hybrid OB/subwoofer system that absolutely kicks it, but I suspect I was pretty lucky. I still haven't measured the system as I have no measurement tools (and that's another reason I don't design loudspeakers), and my audio partner currently has them in storage. Whether a single driver system, multi-way, or multiple driver project, I do love TL's, almost as much as OBs.
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