It's fun to discuss which driver is better, but after a certain point in quality I think chances are pretty good you'll only notice a difference with a direct side by side comparison. I don't think we should be encouraging any manufacturer to tell us what we want when there's an opportunity to give feedback that's actually listened to and implemented.
since it's very very rare that any manufacturer directly solicits such feedback - I couldn't agree more
we just shouldn't be surprised when catering to a (perceived?) consensus doesn't fit our own needs / tastes in a particular instance, or for that matter when in the case of a loudspeaker maker's product line, not every models thrills us all equally
let's not beat this to death - hopefully Mark doesn't weary too much of the blather
Well as I said, it's not always that the customer knows best.
But the DIY audio market might be an exception.
Even with such a knowledgeable user base though, it might not be possible to communicate well enough, and detail will get lost either way...
I'm simply asking whether people like a particular update on a driver? Is that so wrong? And, it's even in a thread on the very topic of that driver.
Also, what's with treating Mark like royalty? Sure, it's very nice of him to drop in to give advice and participate in general, and he obviously knows what he is talking about.
But in most other respects he is a regular person like the rest of us.
It seems as though people are afraid to hurt he's tender feelings, as though he's someone very fragile to be handled with kid gloves. Or even worse, are kissing up to him?
Sorry if you think that. Trolling as I understand it is simply attention seeking on the internet, which is truely pathetic. Something I can certainly say I know with myself I am not guilty of. It's just a question if you want to believe me.
I'm only asking a question and making some straightforward observations, on a discussion forum...
I have simply observed that any time the discussion turns to something even remotely negative around Mark Audio, people get defensive, evasive or are just completely silent.
Marks products generally high quality should speak for itself and does not need bolstering.
My observations might be wrong or have good reason, but instead of calling me a troll, explain.
I'm only asking a question and making some straightforward observations, on a discussion forum...
I have simply observed that any time the discussion turns to something even remotely negative around Mark Audio, people get defensive, evasive or are just completely silent.
Marks products generally high quality should speak for itself and does not need bolstering.
My observations might be wrong or have good reason, but instead of calling me a troll, explain.
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Hi Guys,
Re the CHP Gen.2; It's a driver with characteristics that were led by those members of this forum who wanted a semi-vintage sound. Mostly, the debate and feedback centred on cooling off the highs.
Currently for N. America, the new CHP is out-selling the new CHR. Madisound have already re-ordered CHP Gen.2's and CHBW's. So far, it appears there is a longer term desire for these types of drivers. Being honest, its surprised me. I thought sales of CHR Gen. 3's would be strong but its the CHP's and BW's that are doing better. In Japan, the CHR Gen. 3 and Alp7 Gen.3's are most popular, CHP's and BW sales are very modest by comparison. Early sales in Europe, the Alpair 7 Gen. 3 is most popular, well above new CHR and new CHP/BW.
Comparing this driver to the EL-70 is a little problematic. The EL-70 design brief from Bob R (CSS) was get it to emit the widest possible range, also to go low. That's a long way off from the CHP-70 Gen. 2's characteristics. The design criteria for EL-70 and CHR-70 Gen.3 are closer, so comparisons of these drivers might be interesting. I'm currently building up new cone stocks so feedback is welcome.
Re member Squeaks comment on listening to end-users, I disagree with his thinking. Its good for makers and end-users to come closer and have more communication. There is a "take what we make" attitude running throughout many industries that isn't healthy for longer term development. Today, more consumers are asking questions as they want to know more about products that serve their lives.
There's plenty of periodic debate, some of it passionate, regarding Markudio drivers, my design and communication approaches. This process happens because I'm willing to listen and engage with forum members. While I try my best to make drivers that work well for audio guys, I'm human so I can't get it right 100% and its impossible to please everyone. Please accept my apologies in advance to members who may be disappointed.
Thanks
Mark.
Re the CHP Gen.2; It's a driver with characteristics that were led by those members of this forum who wanted a semi-vintage sound. Mostly, the debate and feedback centred on cooling off the highs.
Currently for N. America, the new CHP is out-selling the new CHR. Madisound have already re-ordered CHP Gen.2's and CHBW's. So far, it appears there is a longer term desire for these types of drivers. Being honest, its surprised me. I thought sales of CHR Gen. 3's would be strong but its the CHP's and BW's that are doing better. In Japan, the CHR Gen. 3 and Alp7 Gen.3's are most popular, CHP's and BW sales are very modest by comparison. Early sales in Europe, the Alpair 7 Gen. 3 is most popular, well above new CHR and new CHP/BW.
Comparing this driver to the EL-70 is a little problematic. The EL-70 design brief from Bob R (CSS) was get it to emit the widest possible range, also to go low. That's a long way off from the CHP-70 Gen. 2's characteristics. The design criteria for EL-70 and CHR-70 Gen.3 are closer, so comparisons of these drivers might be interesting. I'm currently building up new cone stocks so feedback is welcome.
Re member Squeaks comment on listening to end-users, I disagree with his thinking. Its good for makers and end-users to come closer and have more communication. There is a "take what we make" attitude running throughout many industries that isn't healthy for longer term development. Today, more consumers are asking questions as they want to know more about products that serve their lives.
There's plenty of periodic debate, some of it passionate, regarding Markudio drivers, my design and communication approaches. This process happens because I'm willing to listen and engage with forum members. While I try my best to make drivers that work well for audio guys, I'm human so I can't get it right 100% and its impossible to please everyone. Please accept my apologies in advance to members who may be disappointed.
Thanks
Mark.
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I have 2 pair of appropriately tuned millSize boxes, 1 set with EL70, 1 set with CHP-70.2 and both fit into a road case. EL70 So far the EL70 is universally preferred. CHR is quite different, sounding quite tipped up.
dave
Count me as one who truly appreciates this type of approach. Kudos to you for maintaining this level of integrity and service in such a competitive industry. Some of the others may have "designed obsolescence", mass production and "take what we make" attitudes, but the consumer culture is (slowly?) beginning to reject that crap. I can only hope that we begin to see your approach to building products and relationships become the norm, rather than the exception.
Dave,
You made known to me your own preferences for a CHP to follow the characteristics of the EL-70 some months back. While I appreciate your thinking, I have to consider the desires of other members, many of whom may not fit into your circle of thinking and influence.
The new CHP is selling more than originally anticipated so that outcome counts at this stage. The EL-70 has been around for nearly 2 years, selling only modest to steady at best. I won't disappoint those members who want a rolled off CHP-70 by changing it so soon.
I am open to the idea of making more variants on 70-mm coned drivers, including an up-dated version of the EL-70, but I need to hear from more audio guys across the globe.
Cheers
Mark.
Not a lot can be read into the reorder of the CHBW as between Bob & I we bought over 85% of the original order.
DaveR came up with a very nice series XO with ERT26.
dave
Rolled off is one thing, Shelved is another, For a vintage response i would expect a response more like the 15 or 30 degree response of the A7 with a bit more knee at about 10k
Having had many hundreds of vintage drivers thru here i have more than the usual experience.
I am not saying that the CHP is a bad driver it is not, i just don't think it is what it could be.
dave
Attachments
We'll have to see what other guys think of the CHP Gen. 2 and CHBW over the longer term. Certainly the BW had tweets in mind as partner drivers.
Mark.
The last discussion of this ended in a mess of misunderstanding so let me elaborate a bit on my point here.
First of all, the DIY audio audience might be the exception as the customer is generally more knowledgeable.
But, what Ford said in the 1920's about people only wanting faster horses when asked, generally still holds true. Most people are only able to extrapolate from what they already know.
Democracy, petitions and committees are fine for simple decisions, but for more complex problems with many intertwined factors, experts are called for.
Problems arise when novices and experts think they are share the same "thought-cloud" when they use the same words to discuss essentially different ideas.
The most successful consumer electronics company on the planet now, Apple, rarely if ever conduct market research or do focus groups. They rely instead on highly trained gut feeling and expertise to give consumers what they didn't know they wanted.
Sometimes a product just needs some time to settle itself in the market before it becomes a success. Again, Apples product line over the years have had plenty of examples of this.
On the other hand there might be other factors (some being "irrational") than sound quality to account for good sales of the CHP-70 v.2. For example colour, the good rep of the previous model convincing holdouts to buy when a new model launches, etc.
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Yup - preferences for particular models and self justifications of individuals aside, who among us would be surprised at the reaction of the larger audience being a major factor in your business calculus.
By now you have a pretty good idea what some of us prefer, or what would be on our wish list - except for folks in a financial position to commission production of OEM designs, we'll just have to be patient, and either be satisfied with your decisions or not - but sniping back and forth won't accomplish any good (wouldn't that sound better in Latin?) .
I think we're all still learning how to deal with this new paradigm of communication
Squeak: while you won't have trouble finding fans herein, be careful citing Apple as an example of prescience - even under Steve's stewardship they had more than their fair share of "rotten" products over the years, not all of which were caught in time before they flopped either market-acceptance or reliability-wise.
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Apple perfected "designed obsolescence" and "perceived obsolescence". This is the only reason why they are the most "successful" consumer electronics company. This is also precisely the reason why I make it a point not to purchase their products.
Beware that different people define "success" in different ways. If the sole objective is to sell as many products as possible and have those products thrown out and replaced as soon as possible, then Apple is very successful, indeed.
If the objective is to provide products with lasting value to a niche of customers who already know what they want (thank you very much) while making a decent living, then the meaning of "success" changes significantly and cannot be measured against the "Apple example."
I never claimed they were perfect. But as opposed to microshaft they got to where they are now fair and square with pure raw talent.
Come to think of it, I can't think of any fundamentally flawed product other than iCloud (the Cube was obviously a market tester and never meant as a mass market computer).
That's just BS, plain and simple. I don't think you'll find any company with as satisfied long term costumers as Apple. Just ask Dave, still using Power PC Macs.
Apples way is the complete opposite of the Nokia sensibility of putting out a million different products with slight differences for no other reasons than to cater to whims and encourage quick turnaround.
Apples products are changed at most every year (a long time in this business) and are made to last.
Again, they are not perfect (who are), but they are a helluva lot better than just about anyone else in consumer electronics right now.
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