Greetings!
I'd like some advice on choosing my first project. I'd rather not spend >$500 all-told, and cheaper is better. It probably won't be my last speaker build, but I wouldn't want to be feeling the upgraditis immediately. I have a nice source (Ack! dAck!), but only a pioneer receiver as far as speaker-amps go. Full-range appeals to me conceptually; I'm into detail, and can live without deep bass. My room is ~15x12(x8), and I'll mostly be listening to instrumental post-rock (esp. strings-oriented), though I wouldn't want other genres to suffer too much from the trade-offs.
I belong to a "makerspace" with a small CNC (can handle 24"x32") and a _ton_ of other tools. My own woodworking experience is minimal, but I'll have experts on-hand. I'm not averse to a difficult/time-consuming build, and I don't mind the cabinets being sizable (huge even). My biggest concern with what I've seen so far is a lack of detailed instructions; something with .dxf and/or gcode files would be ideal.
I'd like some advice on choosing my first project. I'd rather not spend >$500 all-told, and cheaper is better. It probably won't be my last speaker build, but I wouldn't want to be feeling the upgraditis immediately. I have a nice source (Ack! dAck!), but only a pioneer receiver as far as speaker-amps go. Full-range appeals to me conceptually; I'm into detail, and can live without deep bass. My room is ~15x12(x8), and I'll mostly be listening to instrumental post-rock (esp. strings-oriented), though I wouldn't want other genres to suffer too much from the trade-offs.
I belong to a "makerspace" with a small CNC (can handle 24"x32") and a _ton_ of other tools. My own woodworking experience is minimal, but I'll have experts on-hand. I'm not averse to a difficult/time-consuming build, and I don't mind the cabinets being sizable (huge even). My biggest concern with what I've seen so far is a lack of detailed instructions; something with .dxf and/or gcode files would be ideal.
How do you have a CNC (mill?) and not know how to generate your own G-code?
Anyway, the ER18DXT build is simply (mostly) impeccable. http://www.audioheuristics.org/projects_gallery/ER18DXT/ER18DXT.htm
Anyway, the ER18DXT build is simply (mostly) impeccable. http://www.audioheuristics.org/projects_gallery/ER18DXT/ER18DXT.htm
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It's a little overkill for most speakers since a table saw and plunge router takes care of most work.
However, if you like, I can generate DXFs or other 3D files.
I cannot find the theory of the "Big Fun Horn" anymore, I remember it was on a Norwegian site. The author did calculate the expansion of the horn, and then approximated it with dividing panels in the enclosure. What you could do is use CNC'd layers of a perfectly formed cut out horn path.
There was a Japanese kit maker who offered exactly such layered kits for Fostex, but I can't find the link back. Someone else can, perhaps?
Here is a similar illustration from someone who made a Tannoy coaxial horn with CNC'd layers:
There was a Japanese kit maker who offered exactly such layered kits for Fostex, but I can't find the link back. Someone else can, perhaps?
Here is a similar illustration from someone who made a Tannoy coaxial horn with CNC'd layers:
This is very true. With most speaker builds the only part that would benefit from a CNC is the rebate on the baffle, and even then, only when the driver basket is non-circular. If would also be useful for tedious jobs like holey braces.
A project that can take big advantage of the CNC are things like Frugel-Horn 3 where side panels are rebated and the rear curve done (see here for some pictures) It isn't necessary to rebate the sides, but it makes assembly a breeze. The inner panels are still best done with a tablesaw.
IMO, using a CNC to do somethinglike talaerts posted is a waste. A waste of material, a cabinet that is not as strong, the swoopy curves look cool, but theu degrade the performance suffers because the horn is better able to pass midrange which you don't want coming out of the mouth.
I can supply dxfs of any of the box designs i have drawn (will say drawn by dld), but no g-code, the CNC we have access to only speakers some weird Italian dialect.
dave
Icosahedron's to Islamic art?
Dear momerath,
Because people don't have a CNC milling machine typically people don't make designs for them. When I have seen speakers that use CNC techniques most show the designer had a lack of imagination for what the tools may be used for. Please remember that a speaker is also a sculpture, you will have in your house maybe for years to come.
A clone of a nice looking speaker in my opinion is here, based on transmission line design, I suspect..
For sealed speakers it would be nice to break out of the grim box like shapes of conventional speakers and look into Icosahedron based shapes. In Germany and much of northern Europe their is a tradition of filling Star Dipyramids with lights before Christmas, why not make a speaker this shape ? But why limit your self to regular geometric shapes, why not curve the edges, or use the golden ratio to the length of the points on your star?
Even if you favor boxes, and spheroidal shapes for their the lower surface area to volume ratio, you could also use the great features of CNC for other benefits, why make speakers with thick walls if you can use other approaches. In my opinion you could make a excellent project using CNC milled bracing and the speaker walls relatively small and thin (back to stars). You could even go further and allow the speaker walls to be sand filed, or even three layers thick, in Germany these days energy efficient houses have triple or even 4 layers of glass in their windows, providing heat and sound insulation.
As I started the reason people don't make CNC based designs is mostly due to not having the tool in their possession, and secondly because they don't have the skills to program a CNC system and the tooling costs for every piece a different shape may be prohibitive. For commercial speakers its all about cost. I think you have options.
Regards
Owen
Dear momerath,
Because people don't have a CNC milling machine typically people don't make designs for them. When I have seen speakers that use CNC techniques most show the designer had a lack of imagination for what the tools may be used for. Please remember that a speaker is also a sculpture, you will have in your house maybe for years to come.
A clone of a nice looking speaker in my opinion is here, based on transmission line design, I suspect..
For sealed speakers it would be nice to break out of the grim box like shapes of conventional speakers and look into Icosahedron based shapes. In Germany and much of northern Europe their is a tradition of filling Star Dipyramids with lights before Christmas, why not make a speaker this shape ? But why limit your self to regular geometric shapes, why not curve the edges, or use the golden ratio to the length of the points on your star?
Even if you favor boxes, and spheroidal shapes for their the lower surface area to volume ratio, you could also use the great features of CNC for other benefits, why make speakers with thick walls if you can use other approaches. In my opinion you could make a excellent project using CNC milled bracing and the speaker walls relatively small and thin (back to stars). You could even go further and allow the speaker walls to be sand filed, or even three layers thick, in Germany these days energy efficient houses have triple or even 4 layers of glass in their windows, providing heat and sound insulation.
As I started the reason people don't make CNC based designs is mostly due to not having the tool in their possession, and secondly because they don't have the skills to program a CNC system and the tooling costs for every piece a different shape may be prohibitive. For commercial speakers its all about cost. I think you have options.
Regards
Owen
Thanks for the input! I'm currently drawn to the "Spawn family" by the aesthetics and moderately challenging (looking) construction; the KimChi and Curvy variants in particular. Does anyone have further advice for me, given that?
Is the "by request" access to the plans just a formality (way to keep track of who's using them)?
What's the best place for a US resident to buy the Fostex drivers in question? It seems that most people use medium-density fiberboard; am I likely to find that at my local Home Depot, or will I have to order that too?
Sorry if these questions are answered somewhere that I should have noticed; I did make _some_ effort to find the answers myself.
Is the "by request" access to the plans just a formality (way to keep track of who's using them)?
What's the best place for a US resident to buy the Fostex drivers in question? It seems that most people use medium-density fiberboard; am I likely to find that at my local Home Depot, or will I have to order that too?
Sorry if these questions are answered somewhere that I should have noticed; I did make _some_ effort to find the answers myself.
These have Ron's curved front, we do want to keep track (loosely) whohas them.
FE167 has been discontinued for over a year. I have a few pair left. The new FF165wk may work OK (FF225wk works in the larger ones)
dave
My $.02 worth regarding CNC - I work in a commercial millwork shop which includes a Morbidelli Author 600KL - a great machine when used wisely. (I get to squeeze in some of the more complicated / painstaking parts machining for my projects on this beast)
However for a DIYer even if you think the operating time on the machine is "free" (don't forget to account for tool bit wear), there are far more efficient uses of your time, not to mention materials, than the stacked lamination method pictured earlier.
To the original poster: some of the more ambitious designs that might pique your interest could exceed the maximum field size ( 24"x32"), and in any case I think a first time builder would be better served by considering a modest project, constructed with more traditional methods. Since this is the Full Range Forum, and many long time members have completed numerous projects covering virtually every style of enclosure design and complexity, and driver type, don't be surprised at a wide range of suggestions and contradictory helpful advice.
I'll repeat a few basic questions that could be helpful in streamlining the advice/decision process:
application? - 2 channel music only, or eventual part of H/T video system
venue? - size of room / furnishings, etc
listening habits/needs? - range of types of music / program materials & listening levels. If you're not sure about the latter, I'd highly recommend to buy/borrow a cheapie SPL meter like the old Radio Shack or even an app for smart phone. A lot of folks can read charts on relative loudness levels, but have no idea of what is actually most comfortable for them .
aesthetic constraints? AKA Wife Acceptance Factor?
However for a DIYer even if you think the operating time on the machine is "free" (don't forget to account for tool bit wear), there are far more efficient uses of your time, not to mention materials, than the stacked lamination method pictured earlier.
To the original poster: some of the more ambitious designs that might pique your interest could exceed the maximum field size ( 24"x32"), and in any case I think a first time builder would be better served by considering a modest project, constructed with more traditional methods. Since this is the Full Range Forum, and many long time members have completed numerous projects covering virtually every style of enclosure design and complexity, and driver type, don't be surprised at a wide range of suggestions and contradictory helpful advice.
I'll repeat a few basic questions that could be helpful in streamlining the advice/decision process:
application? - 2 channel music only, or eventual part of H/T video system
venue? - size of room / furnishings, etc
listening habits/needs? - range of types of music / program materials & listening levels. If you're not sure about the latter, I'd highly recommend to buy/borrow a cheapie SPL meter like the old Radio Shack or even an app for smart phone. A lot of folks can read charts on relative loudness levels, but have no idea of what is actually most comfortable for them .
aesthetic constraints? AKA Wife Acceptance Factor?
planet10:
Thanks again. Would it be reasonably straightforward (and useful) to plug the specs for the currently-produced drivers into MJK's mathcad worksheets and adjust dimensions? ("may work OK" isn't very reassuring).
Why do you hope people will move away from MDF? Is it a health or SQ issue? Would MDF be better than not-so-hot (non-baltic) plywood?
chrisb:
Thanks for the further input. I'm not so eager to use the CNC mill that I'd sacrifice other considerations; just thought it worth mentioning that I have access to one (and woodworking experts) so that suggestions aren't limited to total-novice builds. I'm also as interested in learning woodworking techniques as having nice speakers, so I'd like to choose something at the ambitious end of feasible.
I did mention my room size (15x12), listening habits (mostly post-rock), and the fact that I'm fine with huge speakers (though I wouldn't mind them being cool-looking).
Answers to your other questions: I only really care about 2-channel music, though I might try them with my HT system. The room is my studio apartment; it has a bed, desk and dresser in it; I intend to put the speakers at the sides of the foot of the bed, and the desk behind the headboard. I listen at lower volumes than anyone I know, so I can't imagine that would be a problem, but I'll try an android SPL app if you really think it's a risk.
Thanks again. Would it be reasonably straightforward (and useful) to plug the specs for the currently-produced drivers into MJK's mathcad worksheets and adjust dimensions? ("may work OK" isn't very reassuring).
Why do you hope people will move away from MDF? Is it a health or SQ issue? Would MDF be better than not-so-hot (non-baltic) plywood?
chrisb:
Thanks for the further input. I'm not so eager to use the CNC mill that I'd sacrifice other considerations; just thought it worth mentioning that I have access to one (and woodworking experts) so that suggestions aren't limited to total-novice builds. I'm also as interested in learning woodworking techniques as having nice speakers, so I'd like to choose something at the ambitious end of feasible.
I did mention my room size (15x12), listening habits (mostly post-rock), and the fact that I'm fine with huge speakers (though I wouldn't mind them being cool-looking).
Answers to your other questions: I only really care about 2-channel music, though I might try them with my HT system. The room is my studio apartment; it has a bed, desk and dresser in it; I intend to put the speakers at the sides of the foot of the bed, and the desk behind the headboard. I listen at lower volumes than anyone I know, so I can't imagine that would be a problem, but I'll try an android SPL app if you really think it's a risk.
Momerath,
I'm sure Planet10 and Chrisb will have more good suggestions, but I'll jump in a bit.
If you are looking for big speakers with detailed sound, then maybe take a look at the Pensil series? The Pensil 10.2 or Pensil 12 should easily work in the 15 x 12 room. Take a look at the Mark Audio forum for pics and listening impressions.
If you are ok to start with a smaller speaker that is more challenging to build, then you can try out the P10 Onkens. These are bookshelf speakers that you would need to put on stands. I am listening to a Mar-Ken 7.3 I built recently, these do detail like crazy.
I'm sure Planet10 and Chrisb will have more good suggestions, but I'll jump in a bit.
If you are looking for big speakers with detailed sound, then maybe take a look at the Pensil series? The Pensil 10.2 or Pensil 12 should easily work in the 15 x 12 room. Take a look at the Mark Audio forum for pics and listening impressions.
If you are ok to start with a smaller speaker that is more challenging to build, then you can try out the P10 Onkens. These are bookshelf speakers that you would need to put on stands. I am listening to a Mar-Ken 7.3 I built recently, these do detail like crazy.
sorry that I missed those details in earlier posts - I just came back from 4day vacation at Tofino in Vancouver Island, followed by one day at work, and 2 full days in the shop playing catch up on a bespoke build - so I'm even lazier than usual with reading full thread content
the suggestion for an SPL app or cheap meter was just for you to get an idea as to loudness of your everyday comfort zone - most of my music listening is well under 90dB ( in fact sub 85)
not slamming the idea of using a CNC, although they often get used "creatively" at the great expense of material yield, without necessarily guaranteeing any sonic benefits not attainable with more conventional and time saving techniques
keeping in mind that this is the Full Range forum, from your description, there are any number of affordable 4-6" drivers and enclosure styles that could likely fit the bill - I'm quite partial myself to the a couple of models of Mark Audio ( Alpair 7 and EL70) and Fostex (FF125WK and 165WK in the current line)
the suggestion for an SPL app or cheap meter was just for you to get an idea as to loudness of your everyday comfort zone - most of my music listening is well under 90dB ( in fact sub 85)
not slamming the idea of using a CNC, although they often get used "creatively" at the great expense of material yield, without necessarily guaranteeing any sonic benefits not attainable with more conventional and time saving techniques
keeping in mind that this is the Full Range forum, from your description, there are any number of affordable 4-6" drivers and enclosure styles that could likely fit the bill - I'm quite partial myself to the a couple of models of Mark Audio ( Alpair 7 and EL70) and Fostex (FF125WK and 165WK in the current line)
momerath:
in case you haven't found the answer an earlier question, the US distributor for both Fostex and Mark Audio driver that you're likely to see recommended here is Madisound
Madisound Speaker Components: distributor of loudspeaker drivers and parts for speaker builders.
in case you haven't found the answer an earlier question, the US distributor for both Fostex and Mark Audio driver that you're likely to see recommended here is Madisound
Madisound Speaker Components: distributor of loudspeaker drivers and parts for speaker builders.
Dear Momerath,
In a German magazeen "Hobby HiFi" (I do have poor german) they did a round up of full range speakers, and gave very good reviews to the Fountek FR87, Fountek FR88, Fountek FR88EX and measurements for these drivers, interestingly the last two of these speakers seemed to be relatively flat to 20K and break up above 20KHz. The Fountek FR87 seemed better than a lot of other manufacturers reviewed, having its first break up in the 18K region.
The others that caught my eye where the Tang Band W3-1364, W4-1320, and W5-1511. Though the Tang Band W3-1364 looked the best of their models.
Fostex FE126en didn't look bad at all, though I would prefer the Mark Audio 6P Gen.2 , though but the Alpair 6M Gen.2 was nearly as good as the 6P and FE126en.
Of all the measured responses Fountek FR88EX, followed by Tang Band W3-1364 would appear the best from measurements. This said I would be tempted to try the Fountek FR89EX, which strangely they have not reviewed, as each of the Fountek models at the same size that 25mm diameter seemed to steadily get better with price.
My interpretation is not based on seeing the speakers, let alone hearing them, and my thoughts are targeting a simple sealed or open baffle full range driver, and a decent 6.5" bass driver to supplement, maybe crossing over about 200 Hz, with an active 4th order cross over. Second hand power amps are cheap, and I am sold on stereo imaging most. For me the main reason for full range drivers is stereo imaging. Bass is lovely but still having hearing to 17KHz means I am fussy about resonances in the high frequencies, which puts me off a lot of drivers with 10Khz resonances that a lot of popular drivers (on the web) appear to have according to "Hobby Hifi", and "Klang and Ton", the two german DIY Hifi mags. This seems to correspond to many people calling their speakers detailed.
Stereo imaging is a priority for me, and so interested more in consistency of drivers than some other failings, and the fact Mark audio sell Matched pairs is a MAJOR selling point. I've not heard any of these drivers but was considering a self made build before I called Quad and could not resist buying a reconditioned Quad ESL 63, their square wave quality assurance process is a big selling point and stereo imaging is so good that unreal effects can be made with some recordings and the speakers either side of you (mine swivel on a custom stand so I can listen on an axis in the room and still get stereo).
I was surprised looking on the web, and DIY audio how few people had measured full range drivers that are available today, and I could find no independent measurements of a Fountek FR89EX, and browsing the mags has led me to believe many manufacturers smooth out their responses to a point of disbelieving their graphs, though Fostex are more consistent to the Mags than many.
My order of preference was based on looking at specs from "Hobby Hifi" and "Klang und Ton" alone made me suspect my order of preference for drivers would be:
Fountek FR89EX
Fountek FR88EX
Tang Band W3-1364
If this seemed good enough in the treble and mid range then I would give it a nice mid-bass driver and cross over as low as I could.
I also cant help feeling that if you have a CNC machine a boxy shape is just no fun, though sensible for consistency reasons for most of us. Since sealed boxes can be almost any shape, and not having parallel side is a big plus its time to style. I imagine bass reflex speakers can also be most spheroidal shapes. remember small panels have a higher resonance, and require more energy to resonate them, so just having 6 sides seems a waste if your building a speaker box, for frequency ranges where the wavelength is the region of the spheroidal shapes dimensions.
Regards
Owen
In a German magazeen "Hobby HiFi" (I do have poor german) they did a round up of full range speakers, and gave very good reviews to the Fountek FR87, Fountek FR88, Fountek FR88EX and measurements for these drivers, interestingly the last two of these speakers seemed to be relatively flat to 20K and break up above 20KHz. The Fountek FR87 seemed better than a lot of other manufacturers reviewed, having its first break up in the 18K region.
The others that caught my eye where the Tang Band W3-1364, W4-1320, and W5-1511. Though the Tang Band W3-1364 looked the best of their models.
Fostex FE126en didn't look bad at all, though I would prefer the Mark Audio 6P Gen.2 , though but the Alpair 6M Gen.2 was nearly as good as the 6P and FE126en.
Of all the measured responses Fountek FR88EX, followed by Tang Band W3-1364 would appear the best from measurements. This said I would be tempted to try the Fountek FR89EX, which strangely they have not reviewed, as each of the Fountek models at the same size that 25mm diameter seemed to steadily get better with price.
My interpretation is not based on seeing the speakers, let alone hearing them, and my thoughts are targeting a simple sealed or open baffle full range driver, and a decent 6.5" bass driver to supplement, maybe crossing over about 200 Hz, with an active 4th order cross over. Second hand power amps are cheap, and I am sold on stereo imaging most. For me the main reason for full range drivers is stereo imaging. Bass is lovely but still having hearing to 17KHz means I am fussy about resonances in the high frequencies, which puts me off a lot of drivers with 10Khz resonances that a lot of popular drivers (on the web) appear to have according to "Hobby Hifi", and "Klang and Ton", the two german DIY Hifi mags. This seems to correspond to many people calling their speakers detailed.
Stereo imaging is a priority for me, and so interested more in consistency of drivers than some other failings, and the fact Mark audio sell Matched pairs is a MAJOR selling point. I've not heard any of these drivers but was considering a self made build before I called Quad and could not resist buying a reconditioned Quad ESL 63, their square wave quality assurance process is a big selling point and stereo imaging is so good that unreal effects can be made with some recordings and the speakers either side of you (mine swivel on a custom stand so I can listen on an axis in the room and still get stereo).
I was surprised looking on the web, and DIY audio how few people had measured full range drivers that are available today, and I could find no independent measurements of a Fountek FR89EX, and browsing the mags has led me to believe many manufacturers smooth out their responses to a point of disbelieving their graphs, though Fostex are more consistent to the Mags than many.
My order of preference was based on looking at specs from "Hobby Hifi" and "Klang und Ton" alone made me suspect my order of preference for drivers would be:
Fountek FR89EX
Fountek FR88EX
Tang Band W3-1364
If this seemed good enough in the treble and mid range then I would give it a nice mid-bass driver and cross over as low as I could.
I also cant help feeling that if you have a CNC machine a boxy shape is just no fun, though sensible for consistency reasons for most of us. Since sealed boxes can be almost any shape, and not having parallel side is a big plus its time to style. I imagine bass reflex speakers can also be most spheroidal shapes. remember small panels have a higher resonance, and require more energy to resonate them, so just having 6 sides seems a waste if your building a speaker box, for frequency ranges where the wavelength is the region of the spheroidal shapes dimensions.
Regards
Owen
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