Just a comment since my review in post #3 has been quoted several times...
Personally, I like the rising response in the treble because it allows me to make major adjustments to the sound simply by adjusting toe. It's like a built-in EQ. Some older listeners with more worn out ears might like that extra sizzle. Start with them perfectly on axis and then have someone turn them outward in 5 degree increments until you find your sweet spot. Here's what I hear:
0 degrees - crisp center image in line with the speakers, slightly cold/abrasive highs but the warmth of midrange only makes it noticeable on certain material
5 degrees - abrasiveness is less noticeable, center image is warmer and moves back about 1 ft
10 degrees - warm, melt your soul, tingles down your back. image moves back another foot and is pin point precise. Cymbals are slightly muted placing the drummer at the back of the stage (one could argue that's where he belongs!). Oddly, the center image actually lifted too, appearing to come from the top of the cabinets rather than in line with the speakers.
15 degrees - still warm excellent sound. The center image doesn't move back much but starts to widen making vocalists appear larger than life
20+ degrees - the center image spreads out even more.
One thing to note is that it is quite possible the abrasiveness I've heard on-axis is due to my other equipment and or source material, implying that it wouldn't be as harsh if i had an amp and source on par with these speakers.
Songs used for this test:
CSN - Helplessly Hoping. Crosby on the far left, Stills in the center, and Nash on the right. It's 70's hard panning with the left and right vocalists coming almost directly from the speaker, but it is perfect test material. While you listen to Stills in the center, his voice should be no larger, wider, or softer than Crosby singing solely from the left speaker. As they create harmonies together, Still's voice should not pull to the side. Meanwhile, Nash with his higher voice should also balance out coming from the right.
Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra - Portrait of Louis Armstrong (Live). Wynton Marsalis stands in front of the band on this recording, which I believe was recorded at the Lincoln Center. He has a solo mic that places him dead center, but occasionally he points his horn away from it and you can hear some reverb picked up by other mics. He adds in lots of inflection a la Satchmo and covers the full range of the instrument. Growling through the horn, half-valving, etc. Since I play trumpet (as a hobby, not professionally) and have had the opportunity to perform right next to Wynton when i was in high school in this very hall...I know what to listen for.
Personally, I like the rising response in the treble because it allows me to make major adjustments to the sound simply by adjusting toe. It's like a built-in EQ. Some older listeners with more worn out ears might like that extra sizzle. Start with them perfectly on axis and then have someone turn them outward in 5 degree increments until you find your sweet spot. Here's what I hear:
0 degrees - crisp center image in line with the speakers, slightly cold/abrasive highs but the warmth of midrange only makes it noticeable on certain material
5 degrees - abrasiveness is less noticeable, center image is warmer and moves back about 1 ft
10 degrees - warm, melt your soul, tingles down your back. image moves back another foot and is pin point precise. Cymbals are slightly muted placing the drummer at the back of the stage (one could argue that's where he belongs!). Oddly, the center image actually lifted too, appearing to come from the top of the cabinets rather than in line with the speakers.
15 degrees - still warm excellent sound. The center image doesn't move back much but starts to widen making vocalists appear larger than life
20+ degrees - the center image spreads out even more.
One thing to note is that it is quite possible the abrasiveness I've heard on-axis is due to my other equipment and or source material, implying that it wouldn't be as harsh if i had an amp and source on par with these speakers.
Songs used for this test:
CSN - Helplessly Hoping. Crosby on the far left, Stills in the center, and Nash on the right. It's 70's hard panning with the left and right vocalists coming almost directly from the speaker, but it is perfect test material. While you listen to Stills in the center, his voice should be no larger, wider, or softer than Crosby singing solely from the left speaker. As they create harmonies together, Still's voice should not pull to the side. Meanwhile, Nash with his higher voice should also balance out coming from the right.
Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra - Portrait of Louis Armstrong (Live). Wynton Marsalis stands in front of the band on this recording, which I believe was recorded at the Lincoln Center. He has a solo mic that places him dead center, but occasionally he points his horn away from it and you can hear some reverb picked up by other mics. He adds in lots of inflection a la Satchmo and covers the full range of the instrument. Growling through the horn, half-valving, etc. Since I play trumpet (as a hobby, not professionally) and have had the opportunity to perform right next to Wynton when i was in high school in this very hall...I know what to listen for.
Mark,
I have the Alp 12 in Super Pensils and haven't experienced any unpleasantness in the treble region for most material I've listened to. Some folks were reading into the peaks in the FR chart and predicting harshness on the top end though... something which I became apprehensive about, but have not found to be a problem. Couple of things that I've adhered to:
1. Flush mount the drivers
2. Round-over of the back side of the driver mounting holes
I am listening slightly off-axis and I find the mids and tops detailed, but pleasant. Again since the speakers are pretty accurate, I guess harshness in the recording does surface if there's any. We can't blame the speakers for that.
True I haven't listened at very loud levels and will be testing them more going forward.
Efforts to achieve wide dispersion and large listening sweet spot are appreciated.
BTW, The Alpair 12s are much nicer to listen to CHR70.2s and that is for a host of reasons - I feel it would be unfair to compare CHR-70x to Alp in this regard by just looking at the FR charts.
What is the mystery driver - Alpair 14?
I have the Alp 12 in Super Pensils and haven't experienced any unpleasantness in the treble region for most material I've listened to. Some folks were reading into the peaks in the FR chart and predicting harshness on the top end though... something which I became apprehensive about, but have not found to be a problem. Couple of things that I've adhered to:
1. Flush mount the drivers
2. Round-over of the back side of the driver mounting holes
I am listening slightly off-axis and I find the mids and tops detailed, but pleasant. Again since the speakers are pretty accurate, I guess harshness in the recording does surface if there's any. We can't blame the speakers for that.
True I haven't listened at very loud levels and will be testing them more going forward. Efforts to achieve wide dispersion and large listening sweet spot are appreciated.
BTW, The Alpair 12s are much nicer to listen to CHR70.2s and that is for a host of reasons - I feel it would be unfair to compare CHR-70x to Alp in this regard by just looking at the FR charts.
What is the mystery driver - Alpair 14?
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Chuyler- while perhaps not to your taste musically, a couple of tracks worth considering for specificity of imaging and soundstage presentation, and contrasts thereof:
Wailing Jennys "The Parting Glass" ( 40 Days) - very intimate 3 part a cappella harmony - you should be able to clearly isolate each of them.
Loreena McKennit - "Huron Beltane Fire Dance" (Live at the Alhambra) very big band/dynamic - definitely lives up to the promise of the title - try to sit still, I dare ya
I've heard both of these groups live at local venues appropriate to their scale and these recordings can be a good test of a system / room's ability to get out of the way of the music
and for pure fun and amazement at the painstaking artistry involved - Pat Metheny Orchestrion
Wailing Jennys "The Parting Glass" ( 40 Days) - very intimate 3 part a cappella harmony - you should be able to clearly isolate each of them.
Loreena McKennit - "Huron Beltane Fire Dance" (Live at the Alhambra) very big band/dynamic - definitely lives up to the promise of the title - try to sit still, I dare ya
I've heard both of these groups live at local venues appropriate to their scale and these recordings can be a good test of a system / room's ability to get out of the way of the music
and for pure fun and amazement at the painstaking artistry involved - Pat Metheny Orchestrion
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Hi C, guys
Good work. This is pretty much the right way to go and how I anticipated Markaudio drivers would be set-up by most users.
Each set-up and room environment will be different so guys should make their judgement as to the best positioning gradually. Best not to rush this part of the project.
Other items worth noting for adjustment is the volume of damping material in side the Pencils. If the bass is strong, it may be worth increasing the material volume, converse if the bass sounds a little weak.
Re source and amplification, the Gen. 2 Alp10 uses the Matsubara san all Japan trick coil. The wire winding has a rectangular profile (no gaps). Along with the other coils we make either in Japan or Taiwan, they are low mass and sensitive so its worth shopping around for better source and amp gear. Will be interesting to hear more about chip amps etc. as quality and choice appear to be improving. Derek, Shek (Miniwatt) recently gave me his Chip amp prototype to try out. I was surprised just how smooooooth and refined it was on the Alp10 Gen. 2. Came reasonably close to our better amp gear. Derek says the quality of the power supply is important.
The decision to use the Japan rectangle coil in the new Alp10 was made not by me, but by a mix of Diyers via listening tests, post No.63 onwards:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/markaudio/158417-alpair-10-generation-2-sneak-peek-7.html
The gear used on these evaluations was either custom built tube (Tony Wong's EL34, 300B and KT88), vintage Sansui, Sony and Accuphase amps, CD players were Denon DCDS10/3 and Accuphase DP65 and DP67. (see pics). The CD's used mainly JVC's XRCD or high spec recordings.
Thanks
Mark.
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Mark,
I have the Alp 12 in Super Pensils and haven't experienced any unpleasantness in the treble region for most material I've listened to. Some folks were reading into the peaks in the FR chart and predicting harshness on the top end though... something which I became apprehensive about, but have not found to be a problem. Couple of things that I've adhered to:
1. Flush mount the drivers
2. Round-over of the back side of the driver mounting holes
I am listening slightly off-axis and I find the mids and tops detailed, but pleasant. Again since the speakers are pretty accurate, I guess harshness in the recording does surface if there's any. We can't blame the speakers for that.
Efforts to achieve wide dispersion and large listening sweet spot are appreciated.
BTW, The Alpair 12s are much nicer to listen to CHR70.2s and that is for a host of reasons - I feel it would be unfair to compare CHR-70x to Alp in this regard by just looking at the FR charts.
What is the mystery driver - Alpair 14?
Hi Zia,
Good advice and good observations.
The design direction of Markaudio drivers is increasingly lead by the feedback from Diyers on this forum. Most of the user led direction favours increasing SPL and range. To do this I have further reduce mass. The by-product from this approach will be more acoustically sensitive power-trains. So the demands on source, amps, box designs/builds and room set-up also increases. All part of the project challenge and I hope gives more interest for Diyers. It should give Diyers the opportunity to get their systems well into the "audiophile" arena.
Alpair 14 is a long way off so I'm concentrating on the new Alp12 and MAOP for the these coming weeks.
Cheers
Mark.
IIRC these are the GOTO coils, similar used in the A7.3?
I have never seen as consistent a batch of drivers as far as Re goes. Just measured 20 of then and every coil measured the same 5.4 ohms on my meter.
dave
Hi Dave,
Thanks for the observation. Yes, the company that makes the Alpair coils is Japanese and is the oldest established maker in this region. I should also complement our Taiwan coil maker, who runs close to neck-un neck with the Japan guys. All Markaudio's critical components are made by Japanese, Taiwanese and Hong Kong vendors. At this time, we source no major parts from China although their quality is improving. I have 1 golden rule for all our component makers: STAY INSIDE SPECIFICATION. This is important as the final build tolerances on our drivers is inside +/-5% on the main parameters. So Diyers can buy pairs of drivers with confidence, knowing the match will be close, an important element in stereo reproduction and system set-up.
Thanks
Mark.
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Hi vacuphile,
I've deleted your post as it may mislead members. Sadly the test you refer to, is off from the standard required to accurately evaluate the performance of mics. Trying to assess a mics performance in non-isolated conditions isn't the way to go. The critical factor for the assessment of mics is to isolate them and test for sensitivity deviation across their measured range.
Agreed, its good to encourage guys to do testing so lets hope fully isolated comparative tests of mics can be found.
Thanks
Mark.
I've deleted your post as it may mislead members. Sadly the test you refer to, is off from the standard required to accurately evaluate the performance of mics. Trying to assess a mics performance in non-isolated conditions isn't the way to go. The critical factor for the assessment of mics is to isolate them and test for sensitivity deviation across their measured range.
Agreed, its good to encourage guys to do testing so lets hope fully isolated comparative tests of mics can be found.
Thanks
Mark.
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I just posted a similar comment on teh A7.3 thread.
Dave mentioned in that other thread that what's going on 40dB down can impact performance. To underscore the importance of his statement, human hearing is much more sensitive than many think. In component testing we have seen component differences as small as 3 millibels repeatably identified and associated with specific components under test. If human hearing can consistently identify differences as small as this, it should be obvious that noise, distortion or resonances that are only 40dB down will impact overall sound.
Good measurements are only the start of producing good sound.
Dave mentioned in that other thread that what's going on 40dB down can impact performance. To underscore the importance of his statement, human hearing is much more sensitive than many think. In component testing we have seen component differences as small as 3 millibels repeatably identified and associated with specific components under test. If human hearing can consistently identify differences as small as this, it should be obvious that noise, distortion or resonances that are only 40dB down will impact overall sound.
Good measurements are only the start of producing good sound.
Hi Chris,
Yes, I'm currently testing the properties of s 142-mm diameter cone.
Thanks
Mark.
Hi Silver,
Interesting points so please further reference the highlighted sentence in your text. It will be interesting for members to read about the tests to which you refer.
(Additional), I think I've found your reference: http://www.herronaudio.com/tastubes.html.
I've made this comment on this reference in this thread: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/markaudio/190401-alpair-7-gen-3-coming-soon-17.html
I must flag up concern on such published outcomes like this one. So far, I can't see any precise and comprehensive information on how the tests were conducted, how many subjects were used, what efforts were made to isolate internal and external variables (use of blind trails) and no reference to independent verification etc. Until this information is published for independent scrutiny, such results shouldn't be considered conclusive, or reliable.
Emittance's in the lower output regions are limited by the mass and profile of the cone. Some ultra-low mass cones/power-trains have the capability to resonate at the the lower output levels suggested. As to the level of audibility, this may depend on an individual's state of hearing health and no doubt will remain a matter of continued debate. Its part of the reason why I continue to research and test the emittance properties of cones.
Overall, the receptive capabilities of human hearing, both in the physical reception of sound, and how humans perceive the inputs are beyond the representation from the available in-room measuring equipment at this time. We can measure the output from a speaker system in a room, but doing so isn't always automatically going to give an answer that is meaningful and comprehensive. I'm not saying to guys "don't attempt to measure". I'm saying measure but be aware of the limitations of your equipment and treat the results as a guide in helping set up a system. In the final analysis, our own ears are the best for working out the best result for how well a system performs in a particular room situation.
Cheers
Mark.
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Possibly, I'd like to make a paper cone this big but the cone on test is a 1500 micron 1052 magnesium alloy. Very tasty but I'm really pushing the boat well out at only 1500 microns. I fear it may be just easy to bend it............
If we go paper, maybe the best I could to is around 12 possibly 14-kHz so it would be more a wide driver than full-range. If I keep to alloys, I can likely go full monty.
Cheers
Mark.
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