Felt baffle covers on
Overkill's own " Welcome to the Jungle " wallpaper!
I got the felt baffle covers on now, also got nice foamy rubber stuff on the rear panel so the are cushioned for hanging on the wall.
Still to finish the ply wood sides, cant decide between gloss black or gloss white...Got to think of that wallpaper!
Cheers
Derek.
Overkill's own " Welcome to the Jungle " wallpaper!
I got the felt baffle covers on now, also got nice foamy rubber stuff on the rear panel so the are cushioned for hanging on the wall.
Still to finish the ply wood sides, cant decide between gloss black or gloss white...Got to think of that wallpaper!
Cheers
Derek.
Attachments
Listening impressions so far
Hi Studley,
Yes and no!
Listening tests are done really, everyone who has heard them is knocked out. Even ex Overkill customers and guys who have had many hours with my previous gear and other high end systems cant believe the sounds comming out of these speakers.
The kits will have to wait a bit longer as I have taken deposits for 3 pairs of finished LA 16's and 4 LA 9's...It takes me about 45 hours to assemble the 16's and about 30 hours for the LA 9's and that does not include the three days of collection / delivery / collection from joiners to spray finishing guys and back here.
Also I only have enough drivers left for two more pairs of 16's.
I need to finish all the speakers, get the other half of the money and then order another batch of drivers.
You are welcome to come and have a listen, I have a pair of LA 16's in a two channel set up plus a pair of LA 8's with a sub and rear BMR speakers in a nice home cinema rig...Its quite an experience!
Cheers
Derek.
Hi Studley,
Yes and no!
Listening tests are done really, everyone who has heard them is knocked out. Even ex Overkill customers and guys who have had many hours with my previous gear and other high end systems cant believe the sounds comming out of these speakers.
The kits will have to wait a bit longer as I have taken deposits for 3 pairs of finished LA 16's and 4 LA 9's...It takes me about 45 hours to assemble the 16's and about 30 hours for the LA 9's and that does not include the three days of collection / delivery / collection from joiners to spray finishing guys and back here.
Also I only have enough drivers left for two more pairs of 16's.
I need to finish all the speakers, get the other half of the money and then order another batch of drivers.
You are welcome to come and have a listen, I have a pair of LA 16's in a two channel set up plus a pair of LA 8's with a sub and rear BMR speakers in a nice home cinema rig...Its quite an experience!
Cheers
Derek.
Efficiency and impedence
Hi Ian,
We stay just 10 minutes from the St Neots Junction off the A1, so its almost a straight road to you!
Reason for choosing LA 9 over the 8 driver version is efficiency:
Each BMR is 4 Ohms, and an average of 86dB for 1 watt @ 1 meter.
I wire them in parallel / series groups,( 4 groups of 2 Ohms in series ) so 8 drivers result in an 8 Ohms impedence with a 92dB sensitivity.
9 drivers can be wired as 3 groups of 1.33 Ohms resulting in a 4 Ohm load ( well 3.9 Ohm's to be exact) but with a 95 dB for 1 watt @ 1 meter sensitivity.
I can also do a special SET / valve amp version with 10 or 12 drivers to give an ideal 10 or 12 Ohm load with a high sensitivity of around 94dB for 1 watt @ 1 meter.
All the best
Derek.
Hi Ian,
We stay just 10 minutes from the St Neots Junction off the A1, so its almost a straight road to you!
Reason for choosing LA 9 over the 8 driver version is efficiency:
Each BMR is 4 Ohms, and an average of 86dB for 1 watt @ 1 meter.
I wire them in parallel / series groups,( 4 groups of 2 Ohms in series ) so 8 drivers result in an 8 Ohms impedence with a 92dB sensitivity.
9 drivers can be wired as 3 groups of 1.33 Ohms resulting in a 4 Ohm load ( well 3.9 Ohm's to be exact) but with a 95 dB for 1 watt @ 1 meter sensitivity.
I can also do a special SET / valve amp version with 10 or 12 drivers to give an ideal 10 or 12 Ohm load with a high sensitivity of around 94dB for 1 watt @ 1 meter.
All the best
Derek.
Derek
Straight roads indeed, but also quite long ones! I might be able to contrive a work trip to Milton Keynes and combine it with a visit to yours. Might be a few weeks.
As someone who currently uses ESLs I am having difficulty imagining what a speaker that backs onto a wall sounds like.
Ian
Straight roads indeed, but also quite long ones! I might be able to contrive a work trip to Milton Keynes and combine it with a visit to yours. Might be a few weeks.
As someone who currently uses ESLs I am having difficulty imagining what a speaker that backs onto a wall sounds like.
Ian
Long roads...
Hi Ian,
Yea its a few hours even with no traffic issues.
The sound of most wall mounted speakers is usually pretty crap, this is because most wall mounted speakers are "point source" designs which have been designed as stand mount or floor stander but simply stuck on a wall bracket to get them off the floor....Convienience rather than design.
I have designed the LA range specifically to be wall mounted ie they benefit from the wall / floor / celing boundry reinforcment rather than suffer from it!
The BMR 's very broad and even on and off axis performance is particularly suited to both line aray and wall mounting.
One key definition of a true line array is that the total height of the drivers radiating area ( assumming tight edge to edge driver spacing) is equal to or greater than 75% of the floor to celing height of the room they are used in.
Basically the taller the better as this generates a true coherent "cylindrical wave front" and not just a group of individual "point sources" which interfere with each other.
Also taller ( more drivers) = lower distortion & higher sensitivity.
The overall sound is simply closer to real instruments rather than closer to any other type of loudspeaker.
The flat, ultra light driver cones have the kind of speed and low energy storage associated with ribbons or stats, but they have the kind of slam and dynamics of big Pro drivers ie the LA 16 has greater driver area than my 15 inch Precision Devices bass / midrange units and equals the astonishing percussive impact of the PD drivers.
The end product is a unique combination of super fast acceleration / deceleration, very low distortion even at high SPL's and natural room filling dispersion over 180 degrees with no worries about where to place the speakers or set up problems...Whats not to like?!!
Nothing is perfect though, they really are a pain to build...
32 drivers with 64 joints terminals to connect, plus a complex wiring harness, 32 individual driver chambers to line / stuff with three different damping materials, 64 gaskets to cut and fit, 128 screws to fix the drivers and 32 perfect circles to cut out of the baffle felt... Then paint or veneer!
All the best
Derek.
Hi Ian,
Yea its a few hours even with no traffic issues.
The sound of most wall mounted speakers is usually pretty crap, this is because most wall mounted speakers are "point source" designs which have been designed as stand mount or floor stander but simply stuck on a wall bracket to get them off the floor....Convienience rather than design.
I have designed the LA range specifically to be wall mounted ie they benefit from the wall / floor / celing boundry reinforcment rather than suffer from it!
The BMR 's very broad and even on and off axis performance is particularly suited to both line aray and wall mounting.
One key definition of a true line array is that the total height of the drivers radiating area ( assumming tight edge to edge driver spacing) is equal to or greater than 75% of the floor to celing height of the room they are used in.
Basically the taller the better as this generates a true coherent "cylindrical wave front" and not just a group of individual "point sources" which interfere with each other.
Also taller ( more drivers) = lower distortion & higher sensitivity.
The overall sound is simply closer to real instruments rather than closer to any other type of loudspeaker.
The flat, ultra light driver cones have the kind of speed and low energy storage associated with ribbons or stats, but they have the kind of slam and dynamics of big Pro drivers ie the LA 16 has greater driver area than my 15 inch Precision Devices bass / midrange units and equals the astonishing percussive impact of the PD drivers.
The end product is a unique combination of super fast acceleration / deceleration, very low distortion even at high SPL's and natural room filling dispersion over 180 degrees with no worries about where to place the speakers or set up problems...Whats not to like?!!
Nothing is perfect though, they really are a pain to build...
32 drivers with 64 joints terminals to connect, plus a complex wiring harness, 32 individual driver chambers to line / stuff with three different damping materials, 64 gaskets to cut and fit, 128 screws to fix the drivers and 32 perfect circles to cut out of the baffle felt... Then paint or veneer!
All the best
Derek.
Min number drivers
Hi Colin,
If you want to run a pair of BMR LA speakers full range with no subs, in a large room at medium to high SPL then, in my experience you are going to need a good 12 inch driver surface area ie an Sd of approx 500cm to 600cm square.
Using my choice of 4.5 inch Neo driver this means 8 or 9 drivers per speaker.
12 or 16 drivers per side will simply go a bit louder and / or have a bit lower distortion.
If you want to use the LA speakers, or any other full range line array speaker, in a home cinema set up you will get a better result with one or two good 12 inch Subs added in. Pro drivers ( Beyma or Precision Devices are great) in a heavy 25mm birch ply sealed box of approx 60 litres to 80 litres internal volume. You will need a good 500 wats per Ch to drive them, plus a good room measurement and Eq set up to maximise their performance.
Cheers
Derek.
Hi Colin,
If you want to run a pair of BMR LA speakers full range with no subs, in a large room at medium to high SPL then, in my experience you are going to need a good 12 inch driver surface area ie an Sd of approx 500cm to 600cm square.
Using my choice of 4.5 inch Neo driver this means 8 or 9 drivers per speaker.
12 or 16 drivers per side will simply go a bit louder and / or have a bit lower distortion.
If you want to use the LA speakers, or any other full range line array speaker, in a home cinema set up you will get a better result with one or two good 12 inch Subs added in. Pro drivers ( Beyma or Precision Devices are great) in a heavy 25mm birch ply sealed box of approx 60 litres to 80 litres internal volume. You will need a good 500 wats per Ch to drive them, plus a good room measurement and Eq set up to maximise their performance.
Cheers
Derek.
Last edited:
4 driver version
PS
I have made a 4 driver version as well, its great for matching to a single sub (or even better a pair of subs), also great as centre or rear speakers in home cinema.
At £49 per driver including VAT ( £ 40.83 plus VAT) and free delivery in the UK they are tough to beat...
Cheers
D.
PS
I have made a 4 driver version as well, its great for matching to a single sub (or even better a pair of subs), also great as centre or rear speakers in home cinema.
At £49 per driver including VAT ( £ 40.83 plus VAT) and free delivery in the UK they are tough to beat...
Cheers
D.
Presumably a 4 driver version would not satisfy your 75% test. Wondering whether a 6 driver version would and what frequency it would go down to?
I'd be happy with speakers that went down to say 80hz as I would be using multiple subs (3 or more) as advocated by Earl Geddes and others.
two or more subs is ideal
If you are using two or more sealed subs a la Geddes then you can use pretty much whatever you want for your main speakers.
Typical stand mount / mini monitor / full range / Lowther or the new 6 inch Jordan will all be good.
In a normal rooms only the LA 16 and LA 12 qualify as true Line Array's.
The 9 driver version still sounds gob smacking, it just cant go as loud as the full length versions.
A mini line array of 4 or 6 BMR's has an Sd of 240 or 360, equal to or greater than an 8 inch or 10 inch driver, so the 6 driver array will give you a bit lower lower distortion for the same SPL compared to a conventional 6 or 8 inch full ranger.
I Eq ( JRiver 18) both the 4 and 9 driver speakers flat to 80 Hz and 60 Hz respectively and cross to my subs.
The 9 driver array is good to run flat to 45Hz with the -6 dB point at
35Hz, it still goes loud with low distortion, a good 100dB peaks at my listening position ( 4 meters back from the on wall speakers.
I haven't built a 6 driver version ( would be 6 Ohms) but it will be 75% of performance of the 8 driver version which rocks!
If you have a local Naim dealer have a listen to the Naim BMR models to get a feel for the BMR.
Naims passive crossover is the weakest link...They use good drivers and cabinet, so using a line array with double / triple the Sd plus a good active crossover below 100Hz ( 60 to 80 Hz is ideal) greatly improves over the ( £6K !) Naim sound.
One key point is keep everything sealed. The subs and the mains, mixing ports / rear horn / TL or any form of time delayed / out of phase low end is a bad idea.
Cheers
D.
If you are using two or more sealed subs a la Geddes then you can use pretty much whatever you want for your main speakers.
Typical stand mount / mini monitor / full range / Lowther or the new 6 inch Jordan will all be good.
In a normal rooms only the LA 16 and LA 12 qualify as true Line Array's.
The 9 driver version still sounds gob smacking, it just cant go as loud as the full length versions.
A mini line array of 4 or 6 BMR's has an Sd of 240 or 360, equal to or greater than an 8 inch or 10 inch driver, so the 6 driver array will give you a bit lower lower distortion for the same SPL compared to a conventional 6 or 8 inch full ranger.
I Eq ( JRiver 18) both the 4 and 9 driver speakers flat to 80 Hz and 60 Hz respectively and cross to my subs.
The 9 driver array is good to run flat to 45Hz with the -6 dB point at
35Hz, it still goes loud with low distortion, a good 100dB peaks at my listening position ( 4 meters back from the on wall speakers.
I haven't built a 6 driver version ( would be 6 Ohms) but it will be 75% of performance of the 8 driver version which rocks!
If you have a local Naim dealer have a listen to the Naim BMR models to get a feel for the BMR.
Naims passive crossover is the weakest link...They use good drivers and cabinet, so using a line array with double / triple the Sd plus a good active crossover below 100Hz ( 60 to 80 Hz is ideal) greatly improves over the ( £6K !) Naim sound.
One key point is keep everything sealed. The subs and the mains, mixing ports / rear horn / TL or any form of time delayed / out of phase low end is a bad idea.
Cheers
D.
BMRs in open baffle
Hi All,
very interesting to read your thread ref. the BMR .. I do share your comments so far.
Has anyone of you played around with the BMR65 .. in open baffle ?
.. I do have access to the BMR65 and also the BMR85 (only 4 samples) ... and currently I do favour the BMR65 .. for the kind of DIY project I am working on.
Very curious to hear from you.
best
Thomas
Hi All,
very interesting to read your thread ref. the BMR .. I do share your comments so far.
Has anyone of you played around with the BMR65 .. in open baffle ?
.. I do have access to the BMR65 and also the BMR85 (only 4 samples) ... and currently I do favour the BMR65 .. for the kind of DIY project I am working on.
Very curious to hear from you.
best
Thomas
open baffle or closed box?
Hi Thomas,
Please post the spec sheets on these BMR's...There are so many versions its hard to keep track!
I have not had much success with the 4.5 inch Neo BMR 's in open baffle....
I found they really need the closed box air resistance to keep them under control at frequencies below about 200Hz ...I need them to be full range so I abandoned further experimentation....
I think they will be great in open baffle if you use some good 10 inch or 12 inch Pro drivers below 200Hz in open baffle....Well worth a try!
I may be able to give you more help and info soon as I sold a few drivers to a fellow DIYer who is going to test them open baffle....
Cheers
Derek.
Hi Thomas,
Please post the spec sheets on these BMR's...There are so many versions its hard to keep track!
I have not had much success with the 4.5 inch Neo BMR 's in open baffle....
I found they really need the closed box air resistance to keep them under control at frequencies below about 200Hz ...I need them to be full range so I abandoned further experimentation....
I think they will be great in open baffle if you use some good 10 inch or 12 inch Pro drivers below 200Hz in open baffle....Well worth a try!
I may be able to give you more help and info soon as I sold a few drivers to a fellow DIYer who is going to test them open baffle....
Cheers
Derek.
BMR in open baffle
Well .. I am already using the BMR65 in open baffle and surprisingly it sounds good.
I am saying suprisingly - because the just from listening a bit I immediately encountered that that the radiation at the rear side -- seems to be kind of a beam ...
Still -- overall it sounds good - and of course as always with the BMRs the angle when listening in the front does not really matter like with many other full range drivers !
I am using the following models .. right now ..
Bestellen Sie Einbau-Lautsprecher HiWave Lautsprecher-Verstrker HIBM65C20F-8, Breitband 10W 8Ω HiWave HIBM65C20F-8 online bei RS fr Lieferung am nchsten Tag.
I do have access to 4 bigger ones from Cotswoldsoundsystems -- but have not tested in open baffle yet:
http://www.cotswoldsoundsystems.com/specifications/CSS_Specification_Sheet_BMR85DD_N4Y_r1.pdf
best
Thomas
Well .. I am already using the BMR65 in open baffle and surprisingly it sounds good.
I am saying suprisingly - because the just from listening a bit I immediately encountered that that the radiation at the rear side -- seems to be kind of a beam ...
Still -- overall it sounds good - and of course as always with the BMRs the angle when listening in the front does not really matter like with many other full range drivers !
I am using the following models .. right now ..
Bestellen Sie Einbau-Lautsprecher HiWave Lautsprecher-Verstrker HIBM65C20F-8, Breitband 10W 8Ω HiWave HIBM65C20F-8 online bei RS fr Lieferung am nchsten Tag.
I do have access to 4 bigger ones from Cotswoldsoundsystems -- but have not tested in open baffle yet:
http://www.cotswoldsoundsystems.com/specifications/CSS_Specification_Sheet_BMR85DD_N4Y_r1.pdf
best
Thomas
Uh ... some add. info
I forgot to mention -- that I used the BMR65 without any crossover until now ... and it has been ok so far even when going for levels. Currently sticking to 2 BMR65 per channel.
Support for <200Hz through 2x Peerless sls12 per channel.
I will add a crossover for the BMR <200 Hz as a next step and will extend the amount of drivers to 4 BMR65 per channel.
Hard to make a decision between ...
2x subwwofer + 2x mid range + ribbon tweeter in open baffle per side
or
2x subwoofer + 4x BMR65 in open baffle per side
Actually both options have their pros and cons -- as always
.
I forgot to mention -- that I used the BMR65 without any crossover until now ... and it has been ok so far even when going for levels. Currently sticking to 2 BMR65 per channel.
Support for <200Hz through 2x Peerless sls12 per channel.
I will add a crossover for the BMR <200 Hz as a next step and will extend the amount of drivers to 4 BMR65 per channel.
Hard to make a decision between ...
2x subwwofer + 2x mid range + ribbon tweeter in open baffle per side
or
2x subwoofer + 4x BMR65 in open baffle per side
Actually both options have their pros and cons -- as always
.