Arcaydis/Accolade Audio will also be at the show, perhaps with their mini monitor featuring tiny bass mid and a low frequency crossover enabled by the use of small BMR as tweeter:
Model 1
Also Accolade branded Floorstanders:
Model 4 Specifications
Model 1
Also Accolade branded Floorstanders:
Model 4 Specifications
Bristol show
Hi Rob,
I might pop down to Bristol on Sunday, well when I say pop down, its about 4 hours drive from Cambridge!
I used to love exhibiting at shows when I was selling the Ovekill range, esp the Encore... They really made people smile!
Its always difficult to judge a speaker at shows as the whole system and room acoustic is unknown and often compromised with high background noise...or my favourite show experience, some brochure collecting tech spec geek in the seat behind you talking all through your test track that you waited 20 minutes to get played!!
Cheers
Derek.
Hi Rob,
I might pop down to Bristol on Sunday, well when I say pop down, its about 4 hours drive from Cambridge!
I used to love exhibiting at shows when I was selling the Ovekill range, esp the Encore... They really made people smile!
Its always difficult to judge a speaker at shows as the whole system and room acoustic is unknown and often compromised with high background noise...or my favourite show experience, some brochure collecting tech spec geek in the seat behind you talking all through your test track that you waited 20 minutes to get played!!
Cheers
Derek.
Derek,
That's popping with intent!
Maybe you will not be hearing any system at its absolute best but you can certainly get a flavour of many systems. It's always intriguing hearing the different concepts of what constitutes good sound. Seeing products in the flesh definately is a leveller and gets past the veneer of marketing and specsmanship.
Not exhibiting anything yourself should take some of the stress out of the event for you anyway!
Cheers
Rob.
That's popping with intent!
Maybe you will not be hearing any system at its absolute best but you can certainly get a flavour of many systems. It's always intriguing hearing the different concepts of what constitutes good sound. Seeing products in the flesh definately is a leveller and gets past the veneer of marketing and specsmanship.
Not exhibiting anything yourself should take some of the stress out of the event for you anyway!
Cheers
Rob.
BMR availability
Hi guys,
I have not spoken to the guys at Wilsmlow for a few months, but back then they were talking about a RRP of approx £70.00 per 4.5 inch BMR ( the CSS design).
I have almost finished modeling a range of speakers from small desktop / bookshelf BMR models, all the way up to a 16 BMR per speaker line array.
I am getting some great comments from my local focus group ( fellow geeks and their wives!) both on sound quality and asthetics.
I am going to take the plunge next month and buy a large quantity of drivers and build a range of on wall, free standing, centre channel and desk top models.
This driver has great potential!
Cheers
Derek.
Hi guys,
I have not spoken to the guys at Wilsmlow for a few months, but back then they were talking about a RRP of approx £70.00 per 4.5 inch BMR ( the CSS design).
I have almost finished modeling a range of speakers from small desktop / bookshelf BMR models, all the way up to a 16 BMR per speaker line array.
I am getting some great comments from my local focus group ( fellow geeks and their wives!) both on sound quality and asthetics.
I am going to take the plunge next month and buy a large quantity of drivers and build a range of on wall, free standing, centre channel and desk top models.
This driver has great potential!
Cheers
Derek.
Getting CSS to respond seems to be an exercise in futility; I've emailed them 3 times now, but haven't received a single reply. Guess that tells me all I need to know about them.
I do have a person at HiWave that I've been exchanging emails with for almost a year now. I'm being told the expected shipment of production units in 3.5" and 6.5" will be end of March. However, they've missed 3 previous ships dates so I'm remaining skeptical. I've tried several times to get pre-production units, but they've been reluctant to sell me any.
I should probably see if HiWave will be using PE as a distributor - I hadn't though of asking him that.
So they're about $110USD? That's a little much for me. You're going to build a line array with drivers costing that much? You must make more $$ then I do...
$60 BMR in USA
Hi Jman,
I think the BMR 's will be cheaper in the states.
Here in the UK Wilmslow are a small niche DIY supplier, no real volume and always the most expensive source of drivers.
If Parts Express get involved I would expect a US retail of $60 each with good discount on volume sales.
As a reference point, back in 2008 I bought 200 good quality 4.5 inch BMR's from the main NXT manufacturer in China for under $15 each!
Everyone is claiming that their particular version of BMR is special and worth big bucks, but the bottom line is any mass produced BMR ( or most cone / AMT / ribbon's etc ) can be mas produced at a low cost.
The CSS BMR is 225g of plastic, paper and a small magnet...not expensive BOM ( bill of materials) and assembly and test costs are minimal, low weight and small size = low shipping costs...So if anyone tries to rip off the public with silly high pricing its not too difficult to source a driver manufacturer with the capability to produce a good driver. NXT are very keen to high volume sales and they will not stand by and see licencee's maintain artificially high margins and restrict sales volume.
Currently there are several big boys looking at BMR licences and they are very much " stack em high sell em cheap" mind set!
BMR's are very good and are a great match with the new breed of low cost DSP crossovers / Eq and high quality class D power amps.
The main weakness is low efficiency and low power handling = modest max SPL's...So an array of 4, 8 or 16 drivers per speaker cures that and then some! Now we must have low driver costs if we are going to be using up to 32 drivers per pair of speakers.
Cheers
Derek.
Hi Jman,
I think the BMR 's will be cheaper in the states.
Here in the UK Wilmslow are a small niche DIY supplier, no real volume and always the most expensive source of drivers.
If Parts Express get involved I would expect a US retail of $60 each with good discount on volume sales.
As a reference point, back in 2008 I bought 200 good quality 4.5 inch BMR's from the main NXT manufacturer in China for under $15 each!
Everyone is claiming that their particular version of BMR is special and worth big bucks, but the bottom line is any mass produced BMR ( or most cone / AMT / ribbon's etc ) can be mas produced at a low cost.
The CSS BMR is 225g of plastic, paper and a small magnet...not expensive BOM ( bill of materials) and assembly and test costs are minimal, low weight and small size = low shipping costs...So if anyone tries to rip off the public with silly high pricing its not too difficult to source a driver manufacturer with the capability to produce a good driver. NXT are very keen to high volume sales and they will not stand by and see licencee's maintain artificially high margins and restrict sales volume.
Currently there are several big boys looking at BMR licences and they are very much " stack em high sell em cheap" mind set!
BMR's are very good and are a great match with the new breed of low cost DSP crossovers / Eq and high quality class D power amps.
The main weakness is low efficiency and low power handling = modest max SPL's...So an array of 4, 8 or 16 drivers per speaker cures that and then some! Now we must have low driver costs if we are going to be using up to 32 drivers per pair of speakers.
Cheers
Derek.
Hi Derek, well if your taking the plunge next month How about buying a few more than required, I,m looking for 4 units, (2spares!) I,m very interested in a wide dispersion driver as my wife is in a wheelchair and it would be just what the doctor ordered! With multiple units in a line array I think you'd have a pretty unbeatable product, for me it's active I was considering an Alpair 7 for this project.
Regards Robert
Regards Robert
Active BMR
Hi Robert,
I am happy to help out a fellow DIY er and your wife.
Once I get a load of BMR's in I will let you know. Pls PM me in about 6 weeks, I should have a more solid eta for the drivers.
I wont be a retail source of BMR's in the UK as that is more Wilmslow Audio's bag, I am only interested in building a range of BMR based speakers that will have mass market appeal.
They will all be fully active designs with DSP crossovers & Eq, very high WAF with curvy sealed cabinets in some very cool colours and finishes, and matched with custom bass / mid drivers to handle the low midrange and bass.
I have had "Rainforest Audio" on the back burner for a couple of years and now with Hypex / Ncore / and their upcomming DSP / crossover products there is at last a high end alternative to DEQX.
DEQX is a stunning piece of kit but simply way to expensive for mass market. Hypex will be close for quality but way more competitive on cost.
The BMR needs and deserves good DSP as any passive crossover I have heard with BMR's is the bottle neck....Not the driver!
Cheers
Derek.
Hi Robert,
I am happy to help out a fellow DIY er and your wife.
Once I get a load of BMR's in I will let you know. Pls PM me in about 6 weeks, I should have a more solid eta for the drivers.
I wont be a retail source of BMR's in the UK as that is more Wilmslow Audio's bag, I am only interested in building a range of BMR based speakers that will have mass market appeal.
They will all be fully active designs with DSP crossovers & Eq, very high WAF with curvy sealed cabinets in some very cool colours and finishes, and matched with custom bass / mid drivers to handle the low midrange and bass.
I have had "Rainforest Audio" on the back burner for a couple of years and now with Hypex / Ncore / and their upcomming DSP / crossover products there is at last a high end alternative to DEQX.
DEQX is a stunning piece of kit but simply way to expensive for mass market. Hypex will be close for quality but way more competitive on cost.
The BMR needs and deserves good DSP as any passive crossover I have heard with BMR's is the bottle neck....Not the driver!
Cheers
Derek.
Amazing!
Hi Derek, thanks your a star! N-Core is my next project after the speaker, (by the time I've built the speakers I should have saved enough pennies for 4 of them and 4 PSU) in the meantime it's class AB and hand built crossover with value trimmed Teflon caps, when I can spare the time! My wife does keep me busy bless her.
Sounds like you're going to have some very capable transducers there, very interesting times we live in.
Thanks again I will be in touch.
Regards Robert
Hi Derek, thanks your a star! N-Core is my next project after the speaker, (by the time I've built the speakers I should have saved enough pennies for 4 of them and 4 PSU) in the meantime it's class AB and hand built crossover with value trimmed Teflon caps, when I can spare the time! My wife does keep me busy bless her.
Sounds like you're going to have some very capable transducers there, very interesting times we live in.
Thanks again I will be in touch.
Regards Robert
The single BMR Naim uses in its Ovator uses seems to work without compression past 100dB. That would be enough for me. So I don't quite understand the need for a line array -at least if the crossover frequency is not too low.
I still wonder about waterfall plots and distortion measurements of any BMR. That would be quite useful to understand how low to go with a BMR.
P.S. The Ncore and hypex crossover is definitely something which piques my interest
I still wonder about waterfall plots and distortion measurements of any BMR. That would be quite useful to understand how low to go with a BMR.
P.S. The Ncore and hypex crossover is definitely something which piques my interest
"...seems to work..."
Hi Monteverdi,
I think you hit the nail on the head with " ....seems to work..."
We are all far to used to being told that £10,000 worth of B&W, Naim, Wilson or whatever are good references....they are not!!
Once you hear a system cable of continuous SPL's around 120dB with peaks around 130dB with less than 2dB of compression then you fully understand how badly typical £10,000 HiFi loudspeakers compress and distort.
Of course I do not recomend listening at 120dB SPL's, my point is listening to a system capable of playing music / movie sound tracks at average levels of say 80dB to 90dB but instantly responding to an additional 20dB, 30dB or even 40dB SPL ( HD sources) is magical.... The combination of lifelike dynamics and ultra low distortion are so rarely experienced its a shock when you do hear them.
All tonal / textural / presentation and subtle HiFi reviewer speak flies right out the window.
Without lifelike dynamics and ultra low distortion everything else is a waste of time.
The vast majority of commercial Hi Fi systems actually suffer from serious compression at SPL's way below those required to recreate a piano / vocalist or string quartet... Trying to recreate a full orchestra in our living rooms is just too ambitious!
The 4.5 inch BMR struggles if fed with anything below 200Hz or even 300Hz if going for high SPL's, and this is still with 2 or 4 BMR's per speaker.
At 8 or 16 BMR's per speaker you can crossover at 150Hz or even 100Hz and still get great results, but its only when you free the BMR's of all the "heavy lifting" below 300Hz you release its full potential.
Also it sounds a wee bit closed in above 10KHz when its working hard down below 200Hz. Used above 300Hz in a line array mated to the right 8 inch bass/ mid its a stunning driver with mids and highs to rival the best.
Hope the above peaks your curiosity and starts a few DIY ers developing BMR line arrays...they rock!
Cheers
Derek
Hi Monteverdi,
I think you hit the nail on the head with " ....seems to work..."
We are all far to used to being told that £10,000 worth of B&W, Naim, Wilson or whatever are good references....they are not!!
Once you hear a system cable of continuous SPL's around 120dB with peaks around 130dB with less than 2dB of compression then you fully understand how badly typical £10,000 HiFi loudspeakers compress and distort.
Of course I do not recomend listening at 120dB SPL's, my point is listening to a system capable of playing music / movie sound tracks at average levels of say 80dB to 90dB but instantly responding to an additional 20dB, 30dB or even 40dB SPL ( HD sources) is magical.... The combination of lifelike dynamics and ultra low distortion are so rarely experienced its a shock when you do hear them.
All tonal / textural / presentation and subtle HiFi reviewer speak flies right out the window.
Without lifelike dynamics and ultra low distortion everything else is a waste of time.
The vast majority of commercial Hi Fi systems actually suffer from serious compression at SPL's way below those required to recreate a piano / vocalist or string quartet... Trying to recreate a full orchestra in our living rooms is just too ambitious!
The 4.5 inch BMR struggles if fed with anything below 200Hz or even 300Hz if going for high SPL's, and this is still with 2 or 4 BMR's per speaker.
At 8 or 16 BMR's per speaker you can crossover at 150Hz or even 100Hz and still get great results, but its only when you free the BMR's of all the "heavy lifting" below 300Hz you release its full potential.
Also it sounds a wee bit closed in above 10KHz when its working hard down below 200Hz. Used above 300Hz in a line array mated to the right 8 inch bass/ mid its a stunning driver with mids and highs to rival the best.
Hope the above peaks your curiosity and starts a few DIY ers developing BMR line arrays...they rock!
Cheers
Derek
http://www.music-line.biz/cms/fileadmin/pdf/wp_ovator_bmr.pdf
Which response curve do you want to equalize using DSP ?
On axis, 30 degrees or 60 degrees ?
The problems of these drivers cannot be fixed using DSP, since
the dispersion is far too ragged and this is out of scope of DSP.
When talking about "taking quality to manger level" you show,
that you did not quite understand some basics of the working
principle.
Manger has a coincidence frequency above the audible band,
thus it is beaming in a "not so very different" way compared
to an 'ordinary' fullranger in highs:
Mainly the pistonic motional component is radiated.
That is different when using a membrane having coincidence
frequency within the audible band. Modal components are
radiated, thereby circumventing common beaming of a pistonic
acting membrane, but you would have to do a lot more to make
dispersion smooth and thus the speaker sounding uncoloured -
especially under varying angles.
That lies within transducer design and is mostly untackable
using DSP:
You can make that driver more smooth at one specific angle,
thereby making it even worse for other angles.
The deficient transducer (regarding even dispersion) stays the same ...
Kind Regards
Last edited:
The speaker I am using now is based on a Manger MSW. But I want to build an additional smaller speaker for a smaller Room (lower SPL). I agree that correctly reproducing the dynamic content of music is at least as important as an accurate frequency domain. Where I am living now I can listen to music at realistic levels (at least short term - I like to preserve my hearing) but this will not apply for my second system. Speakers which have an array of 2 or 4 drivers (most recently I heard some from Audience) were not very satisfying as there was interference between the individual drivers leading to changes in tonality and dynamics (frequency related) by only small head movements. This is also the reason I did not like speakers with more than one Manger. Larger arrays with closely spaced drivers seem to be better but that would create a speaker much larger than what I am aiming for.
DSP & BMR
Hi Oliver,
I agree that DSP can’t fix gross frequency response errors, but what it does do very well for BMR 's ( or any other driver) is
(1) Allow fine tuning to taste i.e. gentle boost of top end and very accurate notching of any spikes.
(2) Great room Eq, esp. below 300Hz.
(3) Accurate crossovers. VERY accurate in the case of DEQX with the ability to use linear phase and delay as appropriate. Even low cost DSP is still way better than $500 worth of inductors, caps and resistors.
(4) Allow full active amplification / control of the driver.
(5) Allows you to experiment in real time and fine tune driver / cabinet / amplifier / room interface...while the music’s playing, listen and tune from any position in the room.
Please tell me have you built any speakers ( line arrays in particular) using a 4.5 inch BMR? What systems have you heard that utilise the BMR?
I spent 10 years building Manger based speakers, culminating with the 2 way Encore and 3 way Finale models, both were cutting edge and delighted all those who heard them and the lucky few ( unfortunately!) who could afford them ( $30,000 Encore or $50,000 USD )
I can assure you, in the real world, not in simulated world or theory according to Prof XYZ, the BMR has a jaw dropping performance when used in line arrays. Its on and off axis ability is "they make me giggle out loud! " to quote one of my trusted listening panel / advisors.
Montiverde,
I still rate the Manger as my all-time number one single driver, the BMR is not as good on a like for like single driver only basis...it is approx. one tenth of the price of a Manger!
But the Manger is not really suitable for line arrays, I did try and it was messy!
The 112mm square chassis of the 4.5 inch BMR allows tight enough centre to centre spacing, plus its very good off axis performance and, when listened to in real world rooms ( not anechoic chambers), the room reflections all result in a very life like and natural sound.
Its almost the opposite of wave guide / controlled directivity, and it works a treat!
My reference comes back to a piano and vocalist in a real room. Are the controlled directivity? Or do they beam out sound equally in a 360 degree spherical pattern?
I am not saying WG and CD's are wrong.
What I am saying is that the BMR is closer than most drivers in its very broad and even on and off axis performance. Place it on the wall and you also get rid of another problem...Or two, WAF!
Soon the small BMR's will be low enough cost to allow DIY and mass market line arrays with tiny footprints tall slim cabinets that real world families love the look and sound of. Plus ultra slim on wall designs crossed over to subs for home cinema...Many established high end guys are scared of this because its simple, effective, no rocket science required and the establishment can not control it...Mmmn happy days!
Cheers
Derek.
Hi Oliver,
I agree that DSP can’t fix gross frequency response errors, but what it does do very well for BMR 's ( or any other driver) is
(1) Allow fine tuning to taste i.e. gentle boost of top end and very accurate notching of any spikes.
(2) Great room Eq, esp. below 300Hz.
(3) Accurate crossovers. VERY accurate in the case of DEQX with the ability to use linear phase and delay as appropriate. Even low cost DSP is still way better than $500 worth of inductors, caps and resistors.
(4) Allow full active amplification / control of the driver.
(5) Allows you to experiment in real time and fine tune driver / cabinet / amplifier / room interface...while the music’s playing, listen and tune from any position in the room.
Please tell me have you built any speakers ( line arrays in particular) using a 4.5 inch BMR? What systems have you heard that utilise the BMR?
I spent 10 years building Manger based speakers, culminating with the 2 way Encore and 3 way Finale models, both were cutting edge and delighted all those who heard them and the lucky few ( unfortunately!) who could afford them ( $30,000 Encore or $50,000 USD )
I can assure you, in the real world, not in simulated world or theory according to Prof XYZ, the BMR has a jaw dropping performance when used in line arrays. Its on and off axis ability is "they make me giggle out loud! " to quote one of my trusted listening panel / advisors.
Montiverde,
I still rate the Manger as my all-time number one single driver, the BMR is not as good on a like for like single driver only basis...it is approx. one tenth of the price of a Manger!
But the Manger is not really suitable for line arrays, I did try and it was messy!
The 112mm square chassis of the 4.5 inch BMR allows tight enough centre to centre spacing, plus its very good off axis performance and, when listened to in real world rooms ( not anechoic chambers), the room reflections all result in a very life like and natural sound.
Its almost the opposite of wave guide / controlled directivity, and it works a treat!
My reference comes back to a piano and vocalist in a real room. Are the controlled directivity? Or do they beam out sound equally in a 360 degree spherical pattern?
I am not saying WG and CD's are wrong.
What I am saying is that the BMR is closer than most drivers in its very broad and even on and off axis performance. Place it on the wall and you also get rid of another problem...Or two, WAF!
Soon the small BMR's will be low enough cost to allow DIY and mass market line arrays with tiny footprints tall slim cabinets that real world families love the look and sound of. Plus ultra slim on wall designs crossed over to subs for home cinema...Many established high end guys are scared of this because its simple, effective, no rocket science required and the establishment can not control it...Mmmn happy days!
Cheers
Derek.
Hi Derek,
Bending Wave Technology and consistent radiation due to angles
is not a contradiction, but a question of effort in development and
maturity of concepts:
Model2 Messungen
Of course you cannot achieve that using a structure that has WBM
(whole body motion) up to somewhere in the midrange. The "BMR" is
no exception to the rule like e.g. the Walsh/Ohm Transducer is no
exception to the rule.
It is large and rather coherent radiating, interference artefacts quite
unavoidable when used in arrays.
Kind Regards
Bending Wave Technology and consistent radiation due to angles
is not a contradiction, but a question of effort in development and
maturity of concepts:
Model2 Messungen
Of course you cannot achieve that using a structure that has WBM
(whole body motion) up to somewhere in the midrange. The "BMR" is
no exception to the rule like e.g. the Walsh/Ohm Transducer is no
exception to the rule.
It is large and rather coherent radiating, interference artefacts quite
unavoidable when used in arrays.
Kind Regards
Last edited:
Translate please
Hi Oliver,
Thanks for the article, please send a an English translation, when I use the google service it is still impossible to read!
I obviously dont have your grasp of the maths and theory behind whatever the article is about. Would you be so kind as to summarise it?
Also please answer my last questions re your practical knowledge of the 4.5 inch BMR's as I am more interested in sharing views and opinions with folks who have actually built or at least heard the drivers working.
I believe that the best simulations are the ones we build, measure, test and listen too...terribly old fashioned chap!!
Thanks
Derek.
Hi Oliver,
Thanks for the article, please send a an English translation, when I use the google service it is still impossible to read!
I obviously dont have your grasp of the maths and theory behind whatever the article is about. Would you be so kind as to summarise it?
Also please answer my last questions re your practical knowledge of the 4.5 inch BMR's as I am more interested in sharing views and opinions with folks who have actually built or at least heard the drivers working.
I believe that the best simulations are the ones we build, measure, test and listen too...terribly old fashioned chap!!
Thanks
Derek.
Hi Derek,
i have not got the time unfortunately, but measurements should be
somehwat self explaining and this may serve as an (informal) introduction:
Conventional Planar v. Bending Wave Planar Loudspeakers
Kind Regards