Where are we currently with perfecting full-rangers?
Which units are at the cutting edge of what can be achieved?
Given that nobody would use crossovers if they could be avoided, how close are we to solving the issues of designing a full-ranger that can out-perform typical domestic 2-way speakers?
Andy
Which units are at the cutting edge of what can be achieved?
Given that nobody would use crossovers if they could be avoided, how close are we to solving the issues of designing a full-ranger that can out-perform typical domestic 2-way speakers?
Andy
Not far enough to outperform any serious 2 way design , i am afraid.
Anyway i find that Jordan widebanders (maybe full range is a bit overpromising...) are good candidates and matches with high end ribbon or dome tweeters.
Even the ultra full range freaks with their Feastrex stuff seem to go 2 ways too...
And btw, wide band seems to be a clear trend in the latest state of the art designs by midwoofer specialists ( Morel Supreme, Scanspeak Illuminator, etc...).
Well,maybe it's not the best section of Diyaudio to make that kind of statement, but...
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"Nobody would use crossovers..."
What constitues a crossover?>>>
Very good question, and I was musing on this. Apart from the obvious, that you can have an active or passive crossover, what's the situation if you run a full range speaker without any crossover on it and then add a subwoofer or tweeter to fill in the extremes? That way at least you don't put the full range unit through a crossover.
Part of the assumption is that inductors and in particular capacitors degrade the sound. I wouldn't think of putting anything other than a 0.1uF teflon cap in the way of a signal in an amplifier, and the idea of putting the signal through a large polypropylene cap or worse an electrolytic appalls me if I'm wearing my "purist" hat on!
Andy
What constitues a crossover?>>>
Very good question, and I was musing on this. Apart from the obvious, that you can have an active or passive crossover, what's the situation if you run a full range speaker without any crossover on it and then add a subwoofer or tweeter to fill in the extremes? That way at least you don't put the full range unit through a crossover.
Part of the assumption is that inductors and in particular capacitors degrade the sound. I wouldn't think of putting anything other than a 0.1uF teflon cap in the way of a signal in an amplifier, and the idea of putting the signal through a large polypropylene cap or worse an electrolytic appalls me if I'm wearing my "purist" hat on!
Andy
As a purist, you shouldn't be very happy with what most FRs have to offer above 3khz...
Another story is if you are ready to accept compromises for the sake of running FR, but this has nothing to see with purism... Quite the opposite, imho...
I'm basing assumptions about the audible effects of crossovers on hearing a Jordan JX92 in various combinations with very good ribbon tweeters, which included a crossover. In every case I preferred the Jordan run full range. Funny thing is one or two others didn't! They liked the sound of the tweeter.
Andy
Hi - could you expand a little on this? You're suggesting no crossover for the full-ranger, just sloping off the subwoofer to fit?
Why multiple - two, as in under the full-rangers? Or more around the room?
andy
Not far enough to outperform any serious 2 way design , i am afraid.
Anyway i find that Jordan widebanders (maybe full range is a bit overpromising...) are good candidates and matches with high end ribbon or dome tweeters.
Even the ultra full range freaks with their Feastrex stuff seem to go 2 ways too...
And btw, wide band seems to be a clear trend in the latest state of the art designs by midwoofer specialists ( Morel Supreme, Scanspeak Illuminator, etc...).
Well,maybe it's not the best section of Diyaudio to make that kind of statement, but...
indeed, some of those could be considered fightin words
out of curiosity, how many of the most recent "full-range" wideband drivers have you heard?
to categorically state as in another post that
would suggest the answer to my rhetorical question is "not many"
unless you're intimately familiar with Andy's (or anyone else to whom you're replying) systems and listening aesthetic, think about changing "shouldn't" to "might not" ?
a little semantical confusion never hurts does it? i.e. what constitutes a "crossover"
I think what Dave is suggesting is to hi-pass the wide-bander at or around the 80-120Hz range, and that Toole/Geddes recommend multiple woofers (at least 2) located where they achieve most even distribution of low frequencies (i.e. not necessarily under the "mains" ). It's probably fair to say that neither Floyd or Earl are fans of wide-band full rangers, and that the multiple subs approach is applicable to any audio system, regardless of number of channels .
The particular frequencies / slopes and locations that achieve most seamless transition and even distribution will vary, but Floyd's latest text is a very worthwhile read on the subject.
If you want my system and listening aesthetic:
System - All-DHT 300b SET. 26>46>300b
Listening aesthetic:
I'm an ex-pro musician and my absolute priorities are:
1) clarity - to hear everything in the mix
2) accurate timbre - acoustic instruments must sound spookily like the originals in terms of tone.
Not very interested in:
- Extreme ends of frequency response, bass or treble, as long as 45hz-13K is good
- Soundstage. I think it's largely an artefact created by speaker placement, room etc.
So my system is optimised for clarity and accurate timbre. DHTs and minimal parts count. So for me, a crossover which dulls the clarity and veils the timbre is an issue.
Obviously I can't speak for others!
Andy
System - All-DHT 300b SET. 26>46>300b
Listening aesthetic:
I'm an ex-pro musician and my absolute priorities are:
1) clarity - to hear everything in the mix
2) accurate timbre - acoustic instruments must sound spookily like the originals in terms of tone.
Not very interested in:
- Extreme ends of frequency response, bass or treble, as long as 45hz-13K is good
- Soundstage. I think it's largely an artefact created by speaker placement, room etc.
So my system is optimised for clarity and accurate timbre. DHTs and minimal parts count. So for me, a crossover which dulls the clarity and veils the timbre is an issue.
Obviously I can't speak for others!
Andy
Full rangers territory: No jokes admited ? 
I personally own quite a few FR models i have been playing with from Jordan, Supravox, Fertin, Lowther, Fostex, Tang Band, and even use the JX92 VTL as one of my favorite speakers. When the new JX92HD+ will be available, i will surely upgrade.
But, i am not a FR only guy and i find xover design a very exciting stuff too, though it is always tough to make the good job which makes the tweeter dissappear, and no, i don't like when a tweeter plays its solo, be it piezo crap or 1000$ ribbon...
And btw, i consider part count and quality a secondary aspect in a xover: i much prefer a good design which successfully does the job required with humble parts than the classical purist minimalist nonsense...
I have been using during a few years an AN NEIRO replica ( 2A3PSE ), but am quite happy now with Hypex stuff, similar clarity as DHT, but one step beyond.
Colourations is my main worry with speakers. I apreciate stable imaging and wide sweet spot. 20-20000 is overkill to me...
English is not my mother tongue... Something else?
I personally own quite a few FR models i have been playing with from Jordan, Supravox, Fertin, Lowther, Fostex, Tang Band, and even use the JX92 VTL as one of my favorite speakers. When the new JX92HD+ will be available, i will surely upgrade.
But, i am not a FR only guy and i find xover design a very exciting stuff too, though it is always tough to make the good job which makes the tweeter dissappear, and no, i don't like when a tweeter plays its solo, be it piezo crap or 1000$ ribbon...
And btw, i consider part count and quality a secondary aspect in a xover: i much prefer a good design which successfully does the job required with humble parts than the classical purist minimalist nonsense...
I have been using during a few years an AN NEIRO replica ( 2A3PSE ), but am quite happy now with Hypex stuff, similar clarity as DHT, but one step beyond.
Colourations is my main worry with speakers. I apreciate stable imaging and wide sweet spot. 20-20000 is overkill to me...
English is not my mother tongue... Something else?
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What of the acoustic/mechanical crossovers between whizzers and the main cone of various drivers? Their response can be quite rough throughout the crossover region there.
Next up, surely, a ported cabinet acts as a crossover of sorts: the port itself is a bandpass crossover, with an integrated delay (180 degrees at tuning frequency). Other rear-loaded designs do similar.
There's more crossovers out there than one might think.
Chris
It can be done that way, but box would need to be tailored to roll-off. My preference is a 1st or 2nd order PLLXO, built into the HF amp if possible (ie shrink a coupling cap or 2). Removing bass excursion yields benefits in the remaining range.
Much better covered by Toole & Geddes. Snippets of Toole's stuff are downlaodable, but the book is WELL worth reading in its entirety. There is a long Geddes thread here on diyA.
dave
Andy, sounds like you are a good candidate for a FR. Something like Alpair 7 or 10. You in any position to go visit jemraid or toopsy (near Manchester). There are others too... a good place to meet "locals" to arrange auditions is audio-talk :: Index
dave
PS: after living with a good FR, soundstage may take on a whole new dimension to you.
yup, invite yourself by for a listening session, along with beverages for a bribe - the traveling and entertainment expenses will allow for a very quick answer to the "but is it right for me?" question.
I have a pair of Alpair 10s waiting to have boxes made for them!
For about a year I've been listening to some old Audax 5ins mid-bass units firing upwards in a yellow poly? pipe like they use for laying gas under streets. No tweeter. This shouldn't work at all but curiously it sounds quite smooth and has quite decent treble. It must be reasonably Ok since I've changed everything about my amps as a priority and with a full-ranger I can hear every little change I make to the amps. I once swore I'd never build another box - went through a period of Maggies and Apogee ribbons which were lovely but I couldn't see out the window and once I went all-DHT push pull amps meant an absurd number of DC filament supplies, so those went.
So preparing myself to make a couple of cabinets!
Andy
For about a year I've been listening to some old Audax 5ins mid-bass units firing upwards in a yellow poly? pipe like they use for laying gas under streets. No tweeter. This shouldn't work at all but curiously it sounds quite smooth and has quite decent treble. It must be reasonably Ok since I've changed everything about my amps as a priority and with a full-ranger I can hear every little change I make to the amps. I once swore I'd never build another box - went through a period of Maggies and Apogee ribbons which were lovely but I couldn't see out the window and once I went all-DHT push pull amps meant an absurd number of DC filament supplies, so those went.
So preparing myself to make a couple of cabinets!
Andy
Absolute necessity if timbre is important ...are you saying you are able to go 45-13K with one driver ?
Mic and recording phenom, necessary if you are trying to reproduce venue ..
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