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Old 28th May 2011, 05:26 PM   #11
ra7 is offline ra7  United States
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Stuff like "Well, we did it again ~ but in 1/16th the space and without the help of corners. Guess 20 years of thinking about something... does pay off!" and "Designed by an an audiophile genome" should set the alarm bells ringing.
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Old 28th May 2011, 05:45 PM   #12
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Quote:
So how do you solve this apparently unsolvable problem?

A) Don't copy other peoples work.
B) Don't assume that accepted horn theory and it's mathematics are complete.
C) Use your head.
Can this be any more patronising? Evidently Steve is suggesting that

a/ everyone except himself directly copies previous work
b/ everyone except himself is completely unaware of the limitations of horn mathematics when size is significantly reduced
c/ he possesses a monopoly of knowledge, nay, wisdom.

Last edited by Scottmoose; 28th May 2011 at 06:03 PM.
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Old 28th May 2011, 05:52 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scottmoose View Post
c/ He possesses a monopoly of knowledge, nay, wisdom.
Or a knowledge of monopoly.

jeff
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Old 28th May 2011, 06:04 PM   #14
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DaveCan, thank you for posting this! I trust you are well, sir.

Boiling it down, the design is a small Replikon. The paper does seem intended to thwart the proper understanding of the design (which is a very simple design really), but it's just a tad over the top even for hifi marketing

A few things really struck me as notable or odd:

1. What is the backstory that someone attempted to copy his design and got poor results? There's no context for that whatsoever, and it's just puzzling. If this is new, who even had the opportunity never mind the motivation of knocking off what can be readily simulated from scratch

2. As others have mentioned, why no combined driver / terminus trace? Many back-loaded designs have a very deep (and sometimes wide) notch somewhere in the neighborhood of ~100Hz (plus or minus) when the terminus and driver are combining out of phase, although room problems can end up being much more significant.

2. He says the FE103EZ (he means FE108E-Sigma) is "frankly horrible... Too peaky and tipped up to be taken seriously... With it's almost 10dB peaks in the treble this driver will sound deceptively loud.".

To me, that sounds like it was written by someone who looked at the graph but didn't hear it in person, because in real life it sounds nothing like that description. To me, it sounds rather smooth, warm and actually a bit rolled off for my taste.

3. He faults drivers for "poor bass roll off" but that's simply a function of motor strength, and one could just as easily argue the reverse, that higher Qts drivers don't have enough BL to sound "fast". It seems unfair to categorize drivers are bad or good based on BL alone.

4. However, in my opinion, he does get one thing right which is rarely if ever mentioned online. The small commercial corner horn he mentions is popular because it basically sprays a lot of midrange onto the walls and has a sort of OB / dipole quality (the trade-off being very, very light bass response).

5. Having said that, though, the rationale for the port placement (offset from the throat) seems not believable -- that you want to have more midrange going through the horn? I can see a reason for the offset but anyway, not that it matters, it seems to me you'd get more midrange (and gain) going through the horn by placing the port at the throat (without the offset). So I think the offset was chosen for the same reason all offsets are chosen, but the rationale presented is just not, ahem, credible

6. Just a casual observation that this design looks, to me, to have been simulated in AJ Horn (a very worthwhile tool I have grown to love). For some reason, AJ Horn makes easy work of designing BVR's and tapped / offset designs. Certainly the Replikon guys used AJ Horn and came up with basically the same design. They also had the insight that such a design requires a higher Qts driver.

Off-topic but I don't see a way to sim the "port" tapping into the horn in MJK TL Sections (I'm almost always wrong though).

7. Am I paranoid to think that having the (optional) SET inside the cab is a serious fire hazard and ventilation issue? Still, I give points for imagination but in the end, what does it simplify in the room? Nothing to me because now you have to run both power and signal to the speaker. I'd rather have the amp separate, where I can keep an eye on it and just run signal.

However, overall, I think this design does have some positive qualities. But to me, it's a tiny Replikon which is no bad thing, so why not just come out and say that

Last edited by rjbond3rd; 28th May 2011 at 06:06 PM.
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Old 28th May 2011, 06:40 PM   #15
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Because it doesn't make good marketing re the last point.

I've written too much above. Sorry. Looks far too much like a rant -hopefully one of the mods will be kind enough to prune it or perhaps let me provide an edited (i.e. shorter) version that could slot into place.

Last edited by Scottmoose; 28th May 2011 at 06:44 PM.
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Old 28th May 2011, 06:53 PM   #16
DaveCan is offline DaveCan  Canada
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Robert, doing well thanks (would be nice to have a new female companion in my life, but my team has a guaranteed shot at the Stanley Cup, so I guess a guy can't have everything he wishes for lol)

SM, Doesn't seem at all like a rant to me but rather your response to some claims/marketing speak etc. I'd leave it all as is and add as much as you want, same with anyone else that has an opinion of this design and or the marketing hype...

Sometimes I wonder why he does this to himself with the marketing claims etc..
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Old 28th May 2011, 07:35 PM   #17
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Default maybe i'm too old

Yeah of course it's the presentation. When I was younger, I got bent about this sort of stuff but now these kinds of things have become welcome. He always makes me smile and I respect that he just keeps on keeping on. Always building, always selling, always confident. Sorta an energizer bunny constant in the universe...another thing to set your watch by. It's a gift of a free giant smile that tightens my whole face. And the passion is good to see outta Scott in the same way--it's another familiar signpost in the world and there's room enough for all of us. I too thank DaveCan for the link because I wouldn't have noticed otherwise.

So okay he could have untapped it and reached a little lower at a loss of some amplitude.

I don't have that driver or any (real) data for one. I just did a quickie ballpark with w5-1611sa data that I do have & it sorta tracks his data at least to the extent it models what he's built (albeit at lower terminus amplitudes per Bob et al).

I guess what I don't see is how you can reach that low with that many watts and not push the little cones right out into the room (underhung or not). Yeah, at couple-four watts maybe it's cool but, w/o a fronthorn or something holding the other side down more, it would seem gutsy to pump 30 cycles through there in two-digits worth of watts.

The old guys must have seen all this stuff come around 4 times if not more. I mean, Till and Scott were sorta converging to reinvent the EV Skylark...or Imperial as GM said or...whatever was like that before Imperials Can anybody imagine looking Harry Olson in the eye and saying much of anything is new?

It's all big-fun and I'm grateful that that there are communities to share the big fun.
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Old 28th May 2011, 08:07 PM   #18
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Right. Nothing new under the sun. I don't want to spend much more time on this, so I'll skim finish some points on the rest of this 'paper.'

-Speed in horns I've mentioned re group delay.

-Linearity is an interesting one. Setting an upper cut-off for the horn is mentioned as if it's novel, & the 'rival' cabinets are refered to as if they do not possess one (that's what the low-pass chambers & folding is for).

-The design itself is a BVR, as noted, akin to the Replikon, my Harvey & the many vintage cabinets that preceed them by decades. Nothing new here.

It may be a good little box; no dimensions so I can't sim it properly, but I certainly don't buy the 20Hz claim. It also looks to be rather more complicated than it needs to be.

Last edited by Scottmoose; 28th May 2011 at 08:14 PM.
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Old 29th May 2011, 01:50 AM   #19
GM is offline GM  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grindstone View Post
Can anybody imagine looking Harry Olson in the eye and saying much of anything is new?

It's all big-fun and I'm grateful that that there are communities to share the big fun.
Not with a straight face anyway!

Yeah, in reading it I was reminded of the Klipsch, JBL, Frazier, Karlson and especially B0$3, ads. What was old is yet new again. At least PWK invented the 'rubber' throat. As the inventor Tom Danley has quipped, "the ancients keep 'stealing' all my ideas".

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Old 29th May 2011, 02:00 AM   #20
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"the ancients keep 'stealing' all my ideas"

LOL!

The dims for the box are given on one of the links Scott. It's a pretty tidy little box.
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