I just received my roll of solid core cat5, so I took out a few twisted pairs and got my W5-1611s playing in their packing boxes. I'm ashamed to admit it but I'm already quite impressed. I can't imagine how good they'll sound once they're in their horn enclosures. While bass guitar is still about 20 feet behind the band, all the comments people have made about these drivers sounding "fun" and having eerily realistic voice production are quite obviously true. I was expecting that I would apply a contour filter to the rising top octave but now I doubt if that will be necessary; so long as the horn compensates sufficiently for BSC then there will be no need for passive components. Off-axis dispersion also strikes me as being quite good, or certainly better than I expected. While I'm very sure that you can do better in the fullrange world, I think the W5s must represent a great choice in terms of sound and usability thanks to their size, parameters, and price. It's worth pointing out that they're on sale at PE right now for $45 a pop too.
If you'll all excuse me, I think I'll go try to find a pair of crap speakers and commandeer their boxes for the W5s until the horns are finished. No wood shop up here, got to rely on the good will of family.
If you'll all excuse me, I think I'll go try to find a pair of crap speakers and commandeer their boxes for the W5s until the horns are finished. No wood shop up here, got to rely on the good will of family.
Here's a little pic of how I have them set up on top of my now-retired vintage speakers. I know, I know, my setup in general is sub-par but space is at a premium. I'm not considering this break-in since I bought these drivers used, but I am trying to avoid too much excursion. The box-they-were-shipped-in enclosures are so small they're probably suppressing most of the low frequencies and contributing a massive mid-bass hump that's compensating somewhat for BSC. Sub is filling in from 125hz down.
Anyway, I must be stupid for how good I think these sound right now. I've been listening to a lot of jazz vocals and music such as Yo-Yo Ma's Silk Road ensemble. Listening to the track Avez-e Dashti, one of my all-time favorites, I just love listening to the extended decay of each string. Female vocals are thrilling. Just got to wait for those cabinets...
Anyway, I must be stupid for how good I think these sound right now. I've been listening to a lot of jazz vocals and music such as Yo-Yo Ma's Silk Road ensemble. Listening to the track Avez-e Dashti, one of my all-time favorites, I just love listening to the extended decay of each string. Female vocals are thrilling. Just got to wait for those cabinets...
Attachments
FYI, scottmoose did a quick sim posted in a thread of mine, and suggested I put my w5's in this cab using only one driver per. http://homepage.mac.com/tlinespeakers/Woden/downloads/MarkAudio-2xA7-DBR-290610.pdf
sim- http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/atta...inch-driver-ht-use-input-needed-single-tb.gif
To offer some more feedback on the general sound of the w5's. I've given them a few hours work in open air. I thought the opposite of off-axis dispersion, and looking at the cone profile vs size I can see why. I don't think they'll require a tweeter, but i'm super sensitive to "hot" highs. Vocals sound a bit more "breathey" (that a word?), I suspect due to the poly cone......or maybe I'm just used to the fostex vocal range. I can't comment as to bass, but they seem to have potential for surprising bass in the right cab. With all that said, opinions beings subjective of course, I agree......the w5's are a real bargain used within their limitations (> 55-60hz), with sub(s) taking over from there.
sim- http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/atta...inch-driver-ht-use-input-needed-single-tb.gif
To offer some more feedback on the general sound of the w5's. I've given them a few hours work in open air. I thought the opposite of off-axis dispersion, and looking at the cone profile vs size I can see why. I don't think they'll require a tweeter, but i'm super sensitive to "hot" highs. Vocals sound a bit more "breathey" (that a word?), I suspect due to the poly cone......or maybe I'm just used to the fostex vocal range. I can't comment as to bass, but they seem to have potential for surprising bass in the right cab. With all that said, opinions beings subjective of course, I agree......the w5's are a real bargain used within their limitations (> 55-60hz), with sub(s) taking over from there.
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Thanks Stevie. I was always wondering how the W5 would sim in one of the BVRs, but after a few pms with henkjan I decided to try the conic horn. Apparently that will reach 50hz f3, but I wish I could see a sim to know how the horn is acting. 50hz seems easily attainable in a regular BR or DCR, so another fun idea would be to make a 1.5 way with a sensitivity of 93db.
Take the plunge Zilla, I know you've been interested in these drivers for a long time!
One other implementation I would love to try with these drivers is an MJK-style open baffle. Maybe I'll even try an open baffle with sub augmentation while I'm waiting for cabinets, just to get an idea of what OB sound is all about.
One other implementation I would love to try with these drivers is an MJK-style open baffle. Maybe I'll even try an open baffle with sub augmentation while I'm waiting for cabinets, just to get an idea of what OB sound is all about.
Chazdrumzalot,
Really nice AKG headphones there =]
For the open baffle, I have started a thread on using a Tangband W3 and a Tangband W6 woofer with minimalist crossover. I think you can give it a try by simply scaling things up, see if it works. I will work on those speakers this summer so if you're not that urgent I may tell you how they sound when I get them.
Really nice AKG headphones there =]
For the open baffle, I have started a thread on using a Tangband W3 and a Tangband W6 woofer with minimalist crossover. I think you can give it a try by simply scaling things up, see if it works. I will work on those speakers this summer so if you're not that urgent I may tell you how they sound when I get them.
FYI, they are tested in the current issue (2011/3) of the excellent German loudspeaker diy magazine Hobby Hifi.
Their conclusions and recommendations are that:
- a 25 cm (10") wide enclosure will work well so that you don't need a BSC filter then.
- for BR, they prefer an enclosure of 22 to 25 litres, with a BR hole diameter of 60mm and a BR pipe length of 120mm. In the case of the 22l enclosure they use a "vorwiderstand" (extra resistor in series, I think) of 0.2 ohm, and for 25l they use 1 ohm. I must say that I don't quite get why one would put a resistor in series with a FR loudspeaker, and how it would influence the bass. Perhaps someone can clarify? In any case in this kind of enclosure you get -3db at 42hz (22l) or 39hz (25l)
- while the frequency plot is in general quite linear, you can see in the waterfallplot that there are some resonances at around 3.7 and 10khz. In my view, if there is some bite to the sound, I would try a correction filter to surpress the resonance at 3.7 khz, where the freq. response also has a small peak.
Hence it is quite an interesting speaker indeed.
They also compare it to the W4-1320 which it tested elsewhere in the issue, and it must be said that the waterfall diagram of this one doesn't show annoying resonances, but of course it will offer less bass (fs=70hz + smaller surface compared to fs=57hz for the W5) in its optimal small box (only 4 to 4.5 litres). Choice between the 2 drivers is clearly a trade-off. For a home cinema with an extra sub I would go for the smaller speaker, for relatively compact stereo music speakers I would go for the W5.
As an aside they also did test the Markaudio Alpair 12, of which the waterfall plot shows several really pretty bad resonances from about 4khz upwards, which could be perceived as hard/glassy tonality when used with neutral amplifiers. Indeed I read a few reports here and there from people who found that there was some irritating bite to its sound.
Their conclusions and recommendations are that:
- a 25 cm (10") wide enclosure will work well so that you don't need a BSC filter then.
- for BR, they prefer an enclosure of 22 to 25 litres, with a BR hole diameter of 60mm and a BR pipe length of 120mm. In the case of the 22l enclosure they use a "vorwiderstand" (extra resistor in series, I think) of 0.2 ohm, and for 25l they use 1 ohm. I must say that I don't quite get why one would put a resistor in series with a FR loudspeaker, and how it would influence the bass. Perhaps someone can clarify? In any case in this kind of enclosure you get -3db at 42hz (22l) or 39hz (25l)
- while the frequency plot is in general quite linear, you can see in the waterfallplot that there are some resonances at around 3.7 and 10khz. In my view, if there is some bite to the sound, I would try a correction filter to surpress the resonance at 3.7 khz, where the freq. response also has a small peak.
Hence it is quite an interesting speaker indeed.
They also compare it to the W4-1320 which it tested elsewhere in the issue, and it must be said that the waterfall diagram of this one doesn't show annoying resonances, but of course it will offer less bass (fs=70hz + smaller surface compared to fs=57hz for the W5) in its optimal small box (only 4 to 4.5 litres). Choice between the 2 drivers is clearly a trade-off. For a home cinema with an extra sub I would go for the smaller speaker, for relatively compact stereo music speakers I would go for the W5.
As an aside they also did test the Markaudio Alpair 12, of which the waterfall plot shows several really pretty bad resonances from about 4khz upwards, which could be perceived as hard/glassy tonality when used with neutral amplifiers. Indeed I read a few reports here and there from people who found that there was some irritating bite to its sound.
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Very interesting. The series resistor is raising the system Q to increase bass response. See how the resistor is affecting the speaker by using the formula at the bottom of this page:
Strassacker: Lautsprecher - Boxen - Selbstbau
For the 25L enclosure they are raising the Qts to about .5. The tradeoff is that the sensitivity is less, but since they're not losing efficiency from BSC, it seems like a great idea. Maybe I'll try the same thing with the horn if the speakers are sounding thin, since higher Q is shown to increase bass horn output across the baffle step region. Unfortunately I won't get bass output to 39hz with the horn I don't think...
Strassacker: Lautsprecher - Boxen - Selbstbau
For the 25L enclosure they are raising the Qts to about .5. The tradeoff is that the sensitivity is less, but since they're not losing efficiency from BSC, it seems like a great idea. Maybe I'll try the same thing with the horn if the speakers are sounding thin, since higher Q is shown to increase bass horn output across the baffle step region. Unfortunately I won't get bass output to 39hz with the horn I don't think...
Here is another W5 design, a small BR with, cleverly, an adjustable set of corrections.
I now wonder if my above mention of a 22 to 25 litres enclosure with a series resistor, combined with this variable adjustment filter would be a winning strategy:
http://oaudio.de/media/products/3aac7ea456ba5e49f69.pdf
I now wonder if my above mention of a 22 to 25 litres enclosure with a series resistor, combined with this variable adjustment filter would be a winning strategy:
http://oaudio.de/media/products/3aac7ea456ba5e49f69.pdf
Furthermore, considering the W5's relatively low xmax (3mm or so) it would be advisable in the above configurations to make a dual-chamber reflex to suppress excursion. I've half a mind to go that route now...what do I do?? The primary reason to go the horn route is for horn bass, so what's more important: horn bass, or an extra 10hz or so extension?
Scottmoose, is there still any chance you'd be willing to sim the W5 in a BVR?
Scottmoose, is there still any chance you'd be willing to sim the W5 in a BVR?
I checked up on these dual chamber reflex boxes, they seem interesting to try and not difficult to calculate. For theory, I found:
Dual chamber bass reflex design - The Art of Sound Forum
DCR
Project
But I didn't find calculator info on the "fostex style" DBR, with the first chamber only firing into a second chamber.
about:
Dual chamber bass reflex design - The Art of Sound Forum
DCR
Project
But I didn't find calculator info on the "fostex style" DBR, with the first chamber only firing into a second chamber.
about:
I would go for extension.
Along those lines. W5-1611 in a 4" tube. Back it up with a 15" or 18" H-baffle sub. That could rock.
Okay, so now I'm considering a DCR of internal volume around 25L, external dimensions 10" x 17" x 13.5". But I'm still surprised that 10" width is enough to not be concerned with BSC with this driver. The flat 5 design, by contrast, is something like 16" wide. Talaerts, can you tell us any more about that article?
(EDIT) p.s. there is no software for designing a fostex-style double bass reflex, although presumably MJK's spreadsheets will do it. DCRs are much easier to design it seems.
(EDIT) p.s. there is no software for designing a fostex-style double bass reflex, although presumably MJK's spreadsheets will do it. DCRs are much easier to design it seems.
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