After a long day of listening, the bass is really the problem of the fonkens, and I plan on building a subwoofer, but in another time.
Also, those speakers are really style dependent musically. Honestly for jazz, I don't think that they work. They become a bit too harsh (dave conned my drivers) with trumpets and saxophones. They become irritating after a while. However, for listening to classical music and some rock like elton john, fleetwood mac they are gorgeous, but with jimi hendrix they are really irritating so couldn't be my main speakers. However for a room where I like to listen to little pat metheny and classical music or some vocal jazz and little ambience music they shine.
Also, those speakers are really style dependent musically. Honestly for jazz, I don't think that they work. They become a bit too harsh (dave conned my drivers) with trumpets and saxophones. They become irritating after a while. However, for listening to classical music and some rock like elton john, fleetwood mac they are gorgeous, but with jimi hendrix they are really irritating so couldn't be my main speakers. However for a room where I like to listen to little pat metheny and classical music or some vocal jazz and little ambience music they shine.
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hmm, maybe they're telling you more about the source material than you're used to hearing or prepared for?
My "formative" years where during the late 60's to mid 70's, during which time a lot of "classic" rock recordings were issued. I literally (not figuratively) wore out several 8-track tapes and vinyl LP copies of Led Zep 1 & 2, Pink Floyd Umma Gumma, EL& P Beatles SPLHCBN, MMT, Hendrix up to Band of Gypsies etc (you get the picture?) A few years ago for a lark I purchased several of the "remastered" by Jimmy Page early Zep releases as well as UmmaGumma (an early stoner's favorite) . I couldn't get through an entire session with any of them. Same with some of the Hendrix "treasures from the vaults" - dare I say musically a mix brilliance of and self-indulgance and material that should have been left on the floor, but often excruciatingly bad recording/engineering - you can better sound today with a MacBook Pro, Garage Band and a single $100 mike . OTOH for pop/rock the Beatles, ELP, Stones, Fleetwood Mac, Supertramp, and for jazz virtually anything on CTI, Bluenote or Verve sounds as fresh now as in the day. Years before I even heard the name Miles, my first "jazz" album was QJ - Walking in Space - in its own way as psychodelic to an 18yr old as anything in (pick your favorite acid-rock catalog ), and definitely a great introduction to the "how'd you like to actually hear the instruments" school of recording for a punk raised on top-40 FM radio during the late 60's
but I digress, and it's time for more meds
the more revealing the system, the less crap in performance or production values will be obscured by clouds
yes, the FE127E is delightful from mid-bass up, but can definitely benefit from some help in the bottom 2 or so octaves; consider dual woofers, line level and active amplification - XO'd between 80 - 110Hz would be a good starting point .
My "formative" years where during the late 60's to mid 70's, during which time a lot of "classic" rock recordings were issued. I literally (not figuratively) wore out several 8-track tapes and vinyl LP copies of Led Zep 1 & 2, Pink Floyd Umma Gumma, EL& P Beatles SPLHCBN, MMT, Hendrix up to Band of Gypsies etc (you get the picture?) A few years ago for a lark I purchased several of the "remastered" by Jimmy Page early Zep releases as well as UmmaGumma (an early stoner's favorite) . I couldn't get through an entire session with any of them. Same with some of the Hendrix "treasures from the vaults" - dare I say musically a mix brilliance of and self-indulgance and material that should have been left on the floor, but often excruciatingly bad recording/engineering - you can better sound today with a MacBook Pro, Garage Band and a single $100 mike . OTOH for pop/rock the Beatles, ELP, Stones, Fleetwood Mac, Supertramp, and for jazz virtually anything on CTI, Bluenote or Verve sounds as fresh now as in the day. Years before I even heard the name Miles, my first "jazz" album was QJ - Walking in Space - in its own way as psychodelic to an 18yr old as anything in (pick your favorite acid-rock catalog ), and definitely a great introduction to the "how'd you like to actually hear the instruments" school of recording for a punk raised on top-40 FM radio during the late 60's
but I digress, and it's time for more meds
the more revealing the system, the less crap in performance or production values will be obscured by clouds
yes, the FE127E is delightful from mid-bass up, but can definitely benefit from some help in the bottom 2 or so octaves; consider dual woofers, line level and active amplification - XO'd between 80 - 110Hz would be a good starting point .
Hi,
this is not meant concerning the fonkens, because i have no experience
with them, but as a general personal opinion in judging a speaker
auditively.
A speaker which sounds "irritating" with some recordings may or may
not be "revealing" ... only some time spent with listening to different
recordings (and/or different speakers) may show, what it is that the
speaker reveals: Idiosyncrasies of the recording or idiosyncrasies of
the speaker. There can also be some unfortunate interaction ...
A good and well balanced speaker should have a large (the largest possible)
enjoyable repertoire in different musical recordings available.
A good speaker will of course show the differences between good,
mediocre and strange recordings, but it will also allow enjoyment of
most of the mediocre ones when compared to a more "idiosyncratic"
speaker.
A good speaker has no "genre specific preferences" ...
Generally music programme with low complexity like "girl and guitar"
is not well suited to judge a speaker.
Even a jazz trio may or may not sound quite pleasing on speakers
having obvious idiosyncrasies.
There are quite a lot speakers which are able to impress people at
audio shows with "girl and guitar" programme transporting a notion of
"realism", but which fall of drastically when listening to state of the art
recordings of a big band, classic orchestra or choire e.g. .
this is not meant concerning the fonkens, because i have no experience
with them, but as a general personal opinion in judging a speaker
auditively.
A speaker which sounds "irritating" with some recordings may or may
not be "revealing" ... only some time spent with listening to different
recordings (and/or different speakers) may show, what it is that the
speaker reveals: Idiosyncrasies of the recording or idiosyncrasies of
the speaker. There can also be some unfortunate interaction ...
A good and well balanced speaker should have a large (the largest possible)
enjoyable repertoire in different musical recordings available.
A good speaker will of course show the differences between good,
mediocre and strange recordings, but it will also allow enjoyment of
most of the mediocre ones when compared to a more "idiosyncratic"
speaker.
A good speaker has no "genre specific preferences" ...
Generally music programme with low complexity like "girl and guitar"
is not well suited to judge a speaker.
Even a jazz trio may or may not sound quite pleasing on speakers
having obvious idiosyncrasies.
There are quite a lot speakers which are able to impress people at
audio shows with "girl and guitar" programme transporting a notion of
"realism", but which fall of drastically when listening to state of the art
recordings of a big band, classic orchestra or choire e.g. .
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Agreed, 'specially if the 126s are similar (and I'd expect them to be).
I've not heard anything bad about tapped horns for bass (apart from the limited range - 2 octaves), and they can be big enough to be used as stands!
The system I have is nothing unusual, but the extra scale (dynamics, volume...) and weight to the sound added by decent subwoofers means they're no longer suited to only small-scale stuff.
Oliver, not to be too defensive, but not all "chix and guitars" are created equal (think Heart - at their best Ann & Nancy Wilson could rock out as hard as any "serious" band), and other than the predictable lack of bottom end mass and ultimate SPLs, material as complex as Zappa from Joe's Garage to Yellow Shark, Holst "Planets", Ozawa / SFO "Symphonic Dances from West Side Story" , all of which are extremely well recorded, don't suffer on the little Fonkens.
Hi Oliver,
I really like what you wrote. And I would like to agree. But I have not found a single speaker which excels in every genre. Even price-no-object $100k speakers often sound just terribly bad on a lot of material, even at audio shows where the music is selected in advance. One set of speakers at a show last year cost $80k and sounded very dead and dull to me, even though audio magazines could not stop praising them.
I've heard very few speakers that can do orchestral. One system, an Altec Voice of the Theater, was spectacular on Stravinksy's Firebird (the tympani punched you right in the gut) but did not do a great job on Frank Sinatra. They are still great speakers in my mind, but I don't know if it's realistic to expect a speaker to do everything well.
I would love to be proven wrong though
to jump in again
it is true that the fonken's are lacking bass, or at least are not balanced enough. (and maybe the two statements hold true).
i have runned my fonken next to an coral 8 flat. The coral has a stiff suspension so it has little bass, still it is much more balanced and puts a lot more low out. after hearing this i have a hard time listining to the fonkens. a sub is needed or you must tame the highs.
i also build a fonken GR; and must say, it goes a little bit deeper. it disappears a little bit less, but only a fraction and it depends on the source. (most of the time the sound pretty much the same);
for me the small fonkens are not cutting it, maybe if you paint the cone, and tame the drivers. this will be my next step since they are not sounding good enough; i'll step up to a bigger driver to get a bit more bass.
oh yeah a picture of the fonken GR
it is true that the fonken's are lacking bass, or at least are not balanced enough. (and maybe the two statements hold true).
i have runned my fonken next to an coral 8 flat. The coral has a stiff suspension so it has little bass, still it is much more balanced and puts a lot more low out. after hearing this i have a hard time listining to the fonkens. a sub is needed or you must tame the highs.
i also build a fonken GR; and must say, it goes a little bit deeper. it disappears a little bit less, but only a fraction and it depends on the source. (most of the time the sound pretty much the same);
for me the small fonkens are not cutting it, maybe if you paint the cone, and tame the drivers. this will be my next step since they are not sounding good enough; i'll step up to a bigger driver to get a bit more bass.
oh yeah a picture of the fonken GR
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Well, a small and relatively efficient driver in a bass reflex cabinet will never give the deep, full bass that you (and I) crave. In a horn they can do some upper bass with more power, but even then the bass sounds less solid than when produced by a big speaker. It's one of these things in life where size matters
I can see your speakers working well when coupled to a sub though. Ideally in a FAST configuraton so your small speaker is relieved from the low frequencies.
I can see your speakers working well when coupled to a sub though. Ideally in a FAST configuraton so your small speaker is relieved from the low frequencies.
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talaets,
Agreed. I was relying on 5 boxes for my HT set up. They're not Planet10 designed "Fonken's" as I scaled them to smaller volume to fit the physical space I wanted to locate them in - however they should, on paper, reach a 3dB of 80Hz. But it didn't work out for me, these things are fantastic with voices (so nice for centre speaker) but lack too much scale and depth; a lonesome sub can't fill the gap. I'm now using big TL floorstanding speakers for the L and R front with fantastic results. I may yet replace all the surrounds with something more substantial. I think you're right, a FAST would be a better option but I'd still not want to use an FE127. Still, inspired by Dave to build a Fonken style cabinet is something I don't regret, it was one of the most enjoyable and interesting things I've made.
then_dude,
I tried the 'taming' of the cones as far as damar and tri-foil but it didn't help enough and actually I'm not sure I like the results of the cone treatment as something good about the sound was also lost. I only treated 2 out of my 5 boxes and I'm not treating the others - you can't undo it.
The experience had shaken my belief in full range since this was my first build. But I've since made a simple pair of desktop speakers with a lowly 3" driver from Fountek. Surprisingly, they are nice to listen to, bass is pretty impressive for their size and I'm using them in my main stereo set up until I find another design for something larger to try out. It was enough to convince me that full range speakers do have promise.
I understand that the Fostex drivers were popular in Japan. But I remember reading an article about the different tastes in music between Japan audiophiles and westerners like me which suggested that the Japanese place value on different aspects of sound, something the Fostex drivers may well excel at.
edit: p.s. These small fostex drivers prefer tube amps to SS amps judging from my experiments, the damping factor/output impedance of the amp is important in determining how these things will behave.
Agreed. I was relying on 5 boxes for my HT set up. They're not Planet10 designed "Fonken's" as I scaled them to smaller volume to fit the physical space I wanted to locate them in - however they should, on paper, reach a 3dB of 80Hz. But it didn't work out for me, these things are fantastic with voices (so nice for centre speaker) but lack too much scale and depth; a lonesome sub can't fill the gap. I'm now using big TL floorstanding speakers for the L and R front with fantastic results. I may yet replace all the surrounds with something more substantial. I think you're right, a FAST would be a better option but I'd still not want to use an FE127. Still, inspired by Dave to build a Fonken style cabinet is something I don't regret, it was one of the most enjoyable and interesting things I've made.
then_dude,
I tried the 'taming' of the cones as far as damar and tri-foil but it didn't help enough and actually I'm not sure I like the results of the cone treatment as something good about the sound was also lost. I only treated 2 out of my 5 boxes and I'm not treating the others - you can't undo it.
The experience had shaken my belief in full range since this was my first build. But I've since made a simple pair of desktop speakers with a lowly 3" driver from Fountek. Surprisingly, they are nice to listen to, bass is pretty impressive for their size and I'm using them in my main stereo set up until I find another design for something larger to try out. It was enough to convince me that full range speakers do have promise.
I understand that the Fostex drivers were popular in Japan. But I remember reading an article about the different tastes in music between Japan audiophiles and westerners like me which suggested that the Japanese place value on different aspects of sound, something the Fostex drivers may well excel at.
edit: p.s. These small fostex drivers prefer tube amps to SS amps judging from my experiments, the damping factor/output impedance of the amp is important in determining how these things will behave.
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Bigun, et al - a generalization such as
then_dude: if these are your Fonkens on the left of photo
the lack of full chamfer could well explain their lack of "disappearing" act compared to the GRs, and if drivers are only installed with 2 of 4 mounting screws, the lackluster bass response isn't so surprising
could benefit from specificity - as I posted on another thread ( i.e. FH3 & FE127E) earlier this evening, there are degrees of synergy
then_dude: if these are your Fonkens on the left of photo
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
the lack of full chamfer could well explain their lack of "disappearing" act compared to the GRs, and if drivers are only installed with 2 of 4 mounting screws, the lackluster bass response isn't so surprising
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Hi Chris, unfortunately, I don't have much specificity to add to the tube vs SS angle on the FE127E. As I said, my own experience is all I can offer. I have used my FE127 based Onken enclosures with Class AB solid state, both DIY and commercial. I have also used them with a no feedback DIY Class A SET. To my ears the SS option was more precise but annoying to listen to once the novelty of the crisp sound wore off (usually after half a minute). This could be as much about the difference between a SS amp and a SET rather than anything about the FE127E, but I do suspect that full range drivers connected directly to an amp without a cross-over network in the way have a closer interaction with the amplifier and this can work to an advantage when the amplifier has a low enough damping factor to participate in that interaction.
I'll go take a look at the latest thoughts on FE127E you posted in the FH3 thread, could be an interesting option...
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