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Old 26th March 2013, 02:53 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Cal Weldon View Post
?
frame, magnet, coil and cone stuck in a box, nothing has really changed in 80 years, just the hyperbole.
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Old 26th March 2013, 03:31 PM   #112
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Basket, former, spider, cone material, cone shape, surround, magnets, venting, dust caps, shorting rings and adhesives are some of the things that have changed in the last 80 years. Cabinet material, alignments and damping also have.
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Old 26th March 2013, 10:51 PM   #113
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Location: Mar del Plata, a BIG seasonal getaway city, can see the Ocean from our residence.
I believe materials science will hold the key to our loudspeaker "perfection" goal.
Many have looked far & wide throughout our natural world, trying to find a cone material with the seeming 'perfect' qualities.....Infinite stiffness, zero resonance, zero mass.
Here's something I found in National Geographic.......There was a close-up picture of a Dandylion in "seeding".....We know the ones, round fluffy,wispy seeds from the weed. Lying atop this was what looked like a sub-miniature bridge truss.......the article went on to explain this as a newly manufactured substance which promises virtually no mass and extremely rigid.
I'm flipping thru my subscriptions worth trying to find the image & article....very promising material.


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Last edited by Richard Ellis; 26th March 2013 at 10:52 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 31st March 2013, 05:05 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radiosmuck View Post
How many speaker manufacturers or box makers have come and gone over the years it must be many, many hundreds? How many speakers have stood the test of time and are still highly regarded, perhaps a couple of dozen, if that?
It's all about marketing and the more you charge for your product the more you can spend on marketing.
Most speakers are pretty much the same, only the price differs, thats my thinking.
Terry
Terry at this point: "Most speakers are pretty much the same, only the price differs..." I'm afraid I'd have to disagree with you. While I know everything from the magnet, to the frame to the cone itself, affects the sound playback of a driver. I have come to learn ---{from much experimentation on the part of my friend Mike Rispoli with cone doping}--- that a cone's material and the doping of that material, will probably have the greatest affect on the quality of the sound playback ---{sometimes for the better & sometimes for the worse, hence the multiple years required for Mike to perfect his "cone doping" or "cone treatment" the term Mike prefers using}--- and the ability of the driver to actually sound like a true unamplified, acoustic, instrument or singer!

I use a Goldenote Audio Stibbert CDP as a transport. This is connected to an Audio-gd Reference 7.1 DAC via Rullit Audio digital wire. The DAC in turn is connected via custom-made Alan Braun silver ICs to a 40w/ch, SET, Mastersound Reference 845, integrated amp and finally the amp is connected via custom-made Mike Rispoli speaker-wires to a pair of Sachiko double-back-loaded horns. I mention this not to brag, but rather as to provide a frame of reference for you as to the quality of the system which provides the audio signal directly to the full-range drivers I've used in the Sachikos over these past 5 years!

When I first obtained the Sachiko double-back-loaded horns they had Fostex FE206E drivers installed. I later switched to the Fostex FE206ES-R drivers, which had a much better extension at both frequency extremes and a much more realistic sound quality vs the FE206E. However once Mike treated the cones of the FE206E drivers with his "cone treatment" they now had an almost equal extension at both frequency extremes as the FE206ES-R drivers had and now they had the much more realistic sound quality vs the FE206ES-R drivers! Of course once Mike treated the FE206ES-R drivers with his "cone treatment" they went back to having the better extension at both frequency extremes and a much more realistic sound quality vs the FE206E.

I was so completely smitten by the sound quality I was hearing! I had never heard such a natural, relaxed sound presentation in my life. This truly sounded like live, unamplified, acoustic instruments. After Mike left, I noticed he had forgotten to take his "cone treatment" with him. So I added even more of the final two steps of what I believe is an 8-step process of his "cone treatment". Unfortunately I learned the hard way, what took Mike so many years to learn to perfect, i.e. ---to know when the cone had been completely treated and adding any more treatment would now detract from the sound quality!

I had "killed" my FE206ES-R drivers, because there was no going back. Yes there are chemicals that will remove a good bit of Mike's treatment, but to these ears, the chemicals leave something behind that prevents the cones from ever being as good as they previously where. I was very depressed after that error on my part and finally went with the very expensive -$1.8K/pr.- and very rare -250 pairs worldwide- Fostex Fe208ES-R drivers. I used these for about 18 months with a Fostex T900a super-tweeter crossed in at 8Khz. As much as I knew Mike's "cone treatment" would enhance their sound quality I wanted to keep their resale value high, so I refrained from having their cones treated.

To bring this long-winded post to it's near end, I must come to January 2013. My friend Mike called and told me that he had just finished treating a $275 pair of Dayton PS220-8 drivers. Mike said he had never heard such a dramatic change in a cone's sound quality as he had when applying his "cone treatment" to these Dayton's cones! He really got my attention when he said he believed these would literally embarrass my $1.8K Fostex FE208ES-R drivers in my Sachikos. I had my doubts about that happening, but I also knew how much Mike's "cone treatment" had enhanced the sound quality of previous cones it had been applied to!

So take make an even longer-winded post as short as possible, I told Mike to come over and let me hear these Dayton PS220-8 full-range drivers he had treated. Well all I can say is I was so impressed with what I heard I immediately went to Parts Express called their 1-800 number and ordered a pair of those drivers and had them sent directly to Mike for treatment! I've been using them ever since. I'm saving the FE208ES-R for increased resale value and I'm enjoying the most natural sound of live, unamplified, acoustic instruments and singers I've ever heard since installing Mike's treated Dayton PS220-8 drivers.

Terry you might believe "Most speakers are pretty much the same, only the price differs..." but I know from personal experience the reality is: Most speakers are pretty much the same. It's the quality of the cone material and treatment used that causes their sound playback capabilities to truly differ! Hence my truly wanting to hear what the Sonodyne SD855 drivers with hanji paper sounds like. Tell next time enjoy listening to the music...

Thetubeguy (Tom Scata)
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Old 31st March 2013, 05:58 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thetubeguy1954 View Post
Terry at this point: "Most speakers are pretty much the same, only the price differs..." I'm afraid I'd have to disagree with you. While I know everything from the magnet, to the frame to the cone itself, affects the sound playback of a driver. I have come to learn ---{from much experimentation on the part of my friend Mike Rispoli with cone doping}--- that a cone's material and the doping of that material, will probably have the greatest affect on the quality of the sound playback ---{sometimes for the better & sometimes for the worse, hence the multiple years required for Mike to perfect his "cone doping" or "cone treatment" the term Mike prefers using}--- and the ability of the driver to actually sound like a true unamplified, acoustic, instrument or singer!

I use a Goldenote Audio Stibbert CDP as a transport. This is connected to an Audio-gd Reference 7.1 DAC via Rullit Audio digital wire. The DAC in turn is connected via custom-made Alan Braun silver ICs to a 40w/ch, SET, Mastersound Reference 845, integrated amp and finally the amp is connected via custom-made Mike Rispoli speaker-wires to a pair of Sachiko double-back-loaded horns. I mention this not to brag, but rather as to provide a frame of reference for you as to the quality of the system which provides the audio signal directly to the full-range drivers I've used in the Sachikos over these past 5 years!

When I first obtained the Sachiko double-back-loaded horns they had Fostex FE206E drivers installed. I later switched to the Fostex FE206ES-R drivers, which had a much better extension at both frequency extremes and a much more realistic sound quality vs the FE206E. However once Mike treated the cones of the FE206E drivers with his "cone treatment" they now had an almost equal extension at both frequency extremes as the FE206ES-R drivers had and now they had the much more realistic sound quality vs the FE206ES-R drivers! Of course once Mike treated the FE206ES-R drivers with his "cone treatment" they went back to having the better extension at both frequency extremes and a much more realistic sound quality vs the FE206E.

I was so completely smitten by the sound quality I was hearing! I had never heard such a natural, relaxed sound presentation in my life. This truly sounded like live, unamplified, acoustic instruments. After Mike left, I noticed he had forgotten to take his "cone treatment" with him. So I added even more of the final two steps of what I believe is an 8-step process of his "cone treatment". Unfortunately I learned the hard way, what took Mike so many years to learn to perfect, i.e. ---to know when the cone had been completely treated and adding any more treatment would now detract from the sound quality!

I had "killed" my FE206ES-R drivers, because there was no going back. Yes there are chemicals that will remove a good bit of Mike's treatment, but to these ears, the chemicals leave something behind that prevents the cones from ever being as good as they previously where. I was very depressed after that error on my part and finally went with the very expensive -$1.8K/pr.- and very rare -250 pairs worldwide- Fostex Fe208ES-R drivers. I used these for about 18 months with a Fostex T900a super-tweeter crossed in at 8Khz. As much as I knew Mike's "cone treatment" would enhance their sound quality I wanted to keep their resale value high, so I refrained from having their cones treated.

To bring this long-winded post to it's near end, I must come to January 2013. My friend Mike called and told me that he had just finished treating a $275 pair of Dayton PS220-8 drivers. Mike said he had never heard such a dramatic change in a cone's sound quality as he had when applying his "cone treatment" to these Dayton's cones! He really got my attention when he said he believed these would literally embarrass my $1.8K Fostex FE208ES-R drivers in my Sachikos. I had my doubts about that happening, but I also knew how much Mike's "cone treatment" had enhanced the sound quality of previous cones it had been applied to!

So take make an even longer-winded post as short as possible, I told Mike to come over and let me hear these Dayton PS220-8 full-range drivers he had treated. Well all I can say is I was so impressed with what I heard I immediately went to Parts Express called their 1-800 number and ordered a pair of those drivers and had them sent directly to Mike for treatment! I've been using them ever since. I'm saving the FE208ES-R for increased resale value and I'm enjoying the most natural sound of live, unamplified, acoustic instruments and singers I've ever heard since installing Mike's treated Dayton PS220-8 drivers.

Terry you might believe "Most speakers are pretty much the same, only the price differs..." but I know from personal experience the reality is: Most speakers are pretty much the same. It's the quality of the cone material and treatment used that causes their sound playback capabilities to truly differ! Hence my truly wanting to hear what the Sonodyne SD855 drivers with hanji paper sounds like. Tell next time enjoy listening to the music...

Thetubeguy (Tom Scata)
Sorry Tom, I would not let anyone near my vintage Tannoy Yorks with a bottle of "secret sauce" in their grubby little mits
These bloody Tannoys are better than money in the bank and sound just fabulous connected to a cheap D-amp. This must indicate how speakers have NOT changed over the years.
Doping is not speaker making, more of an after market service?
I am not searching for the perfect sound, I'm too old for that.
Terry
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Old 2nd April 2013, 04:13 AM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thetubeguy1954 View Post
Terry at this point: "Most speakers are pretty much the same, only the price differs..." I'm afraid I'd have to disagree with you. While I know everything from the magnet, to the frame to the cone itself, affects the sound playback of a driver. I have come to learn ---{from much experimentation on the part of my friend Mike Rispoli with cone doping}--- that a cone's material and the doping of that material, will probably have the greatest affect on the quality of the sound playback ---{sometimes for the better & sometimes for the worse, hence the multiple years required for Mike to perfect his "cone doping" or "cone treatment" the term Mike prefers using}--- and the ability of the driver to actually sound like a true unamplified, acoustic, instrument or singer!

I use a Goldenote Audio Stibbert CDP as a transport. This is connected to an Audio-gd Reference 7.1 DAC via Rullit Audio digital wire. The DAC in turn is connected via custom-made Alan Braun silver ICs to a 40w/ch, SET, Mastersound Reference 845, integrated amp and finally the amp is connected via custom-made Mike Rispoli speaker-wires to a pair of Sachiko double-back-loaded horns. I mention this not to brag, but rather as to provide a frame of reference for you as to the quality of the system which provides the audio signal directly to the full-range drivers I've used in the Sachikos over these past 5 years!

When I first obtained the Sachiko double-back-loaded horns they had Fostex FE206E drivers installed. I later switched to the Fostex FE206ES-R drivers, which had a much better extension at both frequency extremes and a much more realistic sound quality vs the FE206E. However once Mike treated the cones of the FE206E drivers with his "cone treatment" they now had an almost equal extension at both frequency extremes as the FE206ES-R drivers had and now they had the much more realistic sound quality vs the FE206ES-R drivers! Of course once Mike treated the FE206ES-R drivers with his "cone treatment" they went back to having the better extension at both frequency extremes and a much more realistic sound quality vs the FE206E.

I was so completely smitten by the sound quality I was hearing! I had never heard such a natural, relaxed sound presentation in my life. This truly sounded like live, unamplified, acoustic instruments. After Mike left, I noticed he had forgotten to take his "cone treatment" with him. So I added even more of the final two steps of what I believe is an 8-step process of his "cone treatment". Unfortunately I learned the hard way, what took Mike so many years to learn to perfect, i.e. ---to know when the cone had been completely treated and adding any more treatment would now detract from the sound quality!

I had "killed" my FE206ES-R drivers, because there was no going back. Yes there are chemicals that will remove a good bit of Mike's treatment, but to these ears, the chemicals leave something behind that prevents the cones from ever being as good as they previously where. I was very depressed after that error on my part and finally went with the very expensive -$1.8K/pr.- and very rare -250 pairs worldwide- Fostex Fe208ES-R drivers. I used these for about 18 months with a Fostex T900a super-tweeter crossed in at 8Khz. As much as I knew Mike's "cone treatment" would enhance their sound quality I wanted to keep their resale value high, so I refrained from having their cones treated.

To bring this long-winded post to it's near end, I must come to January 2013. My friend Mike called and told me that he had just finished treating a $275 pair of Dayton PS220-8 drivers. Mike said he had never heard such a dramatic change in a cone's sound quality as he had when applying his "cone treatment" to these Dayton's cones! He really got my attention when he said he believed these would literally embarrass my $1.8K Fostex FE208ES-R drivers in my Sachikos. I had my doubts about that happening, but I also knew how much Mike's "cone treatment" had enhanced the sound quality of previous cones it had been applied to!

So take make an even longer-winded post as short as possible, I told Mike to come over and let me hear these Dayton PS220-8 full-range drivers he had treated. Well all I can say is I was so impressed with what I heard I immediately went to Parts Express called their 1-800 number and ordered a pair of those drivers and had them sent directly to Mike for treatment! I've been using them ever since. I'm saving the FE208ES-R for increased resale value and I'm enjoying the most natural sound of live, unamplified, acoustic instruments and singers I've ever heard since installing Mike's treated Dayton PS220-8 drivers.

Terry you might believe "Most speakers are pretty much the same, only the price differs..." but I know from personal experience the reality is: Most speakers are pretty much the same. It's the quality of the cone material and treatment used that causes their sound playback capabilities to truly differ! Hence my truly wanting to hear what the Sonodyne SD855 drivers with hanji paper sounds like. Tell next time enjoy listening to the music...

Thetubeguy (Tom Scata)
What is the recipe for that and how can I find some to try on my Visatons?
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Old 2nd April 2013, 02:34 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by costis_n View Post
What is the recipe for that and how can I find some to try on my Visatons?
Hello Costis! I'm afraid that Mike won't give out the specific combination of doping materials used in his "cone treatment" process. Why? well although you'd have to ask Mike himself I believe it took him over 10 years to develop his present usage of 10 to 12 steps in his proprietary process of doping the cones, allowing them to dry, listening to the changes imparted by the cone treatment at that stage and then repeating the process of doping them again etc. until at last he feels the process is complete and any additional application of doping material would be detrimental to the driver's sonics! While the application of specific various doping materials in a specific order is something that can be written on a piece of paper. What MUST be learned and what cannot be taught via any set of instructions on a piece of paper, is what & Mike finally learned to listen for in those numerous drying and listening steps! What does he finally "hear" that tells him the application of any additional doping material would be detrimental to the driver's sonics?

Costis I cannot tell you how many times Mike has talked about all the drivers ---{drivers Mike had to buy out of his own pocket}--- he purchased & used and "destroyed" over the years while developing his present "cone treatment" process. Until at long last Mike finally learned how much of which doping material, in which specific order, when to allow them to completely dry in the various application steps and what to listen for that tells him, the affects of any additional applied doping materials would destroy the sonics, until at last his proprietary cone doping process was perfected!

As I said previously it took Mike over 10 years ---{you can ask Mike yourself about specific amount of time 8, 9 or 10+ years it took to develop his "cone treatment" process]--- Mike is actually very open about his process and will answer almost any question you might want to ask him about his "cone treatment" process. He'll also provide names of people who've had his "cone treatment" process applied to their various drivers that you can contact and ask what their impressions of his "cone treatment" did to enhance the sound quality of their drivers! If Mike doesn't have their email addresses, I have some as some are part of the SETriodes forum that I moderate online. So Costis I'd really suggest you emailing Mike at mike@woodworksofdistinction.com or calling him at: 407-654-6933 Finally this is Mike's website: woodworksofdistinction.com

Mike is a master-level Wood Finisher, Cabinet Refinisher and he provides Architectural Finishing Solutions of wood of any kind in businesses & homes of some of the richest people here in Florida. Just check out his client list when you visit his website! So sadly you won't see anything about treating drivers because that's a sort of hobby for him that developed from his love of audio. So you won't see anything about anything audio there ---{I'm trying to convince Mike he really needs to add a page for audio}--- but you will see the quality of his woodwork, get an idea of the types of chemicals he used and how he developed his incredible "cone treatment"

NOTE: Mike is a very good friend of mine. I am only sharing the info here because having paid for his cone treatment myself and have used his cone treatment on these drivers: Fostex FE206E, FE206ES-R and Dayton PS220-8. I can attest to the remarkable transformation in these drivers. Once treated they sound so much more like live, unamplified, acoustic instruments & singers do, when compared to how they sounded in their original untreated form! I receive no financial gain nor do I work for Mike. I share this info so as to be 100% honest with anyone who reads this post. For those who believe I have something to gain from this. You can just say you read something about Mike and his process on the internet because Mike's also been mentioned on Hawthorne Audio forum by someone else. So I suggest leaving me and my name out completely for your own peace of mind.

Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
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Old 2nd April 2013, 03:48 PM   #118
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Out of genuine interest Tom, since I recall you mentioning Mike's driver modifications before, how does he assess the changes, and vary the application from unit to unit to achieve an optimum? Since he's doping the cones, even if 90% of what is presumably painted on evaporates, there will be some mass added, which will more or less subtly depending on the specific driver change the overall electromechanical properties, reducing damping and efficiency. It will also, I imagine, change the stiffness and micro-resonance / emitance behaviour of the cone substrate, which will of course alter the frequency response, exactly how presumably depending on the quantity of the treatment added and exactly where on the cone surface it is applied? Sorry for the questions, but I'm increasingly interested in driver design, so am always curious about such things and their effects.

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Old 2nd April 2013, 04:05 PM   #119
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A question Tom, the guy with the "secret sauce" dopes your speaker cone to his own perceived goodness, correct?
The following is from a speaker enclosure building book.
"Hearing is a very personal matter, and must be dealt with on a personal basis. You may have be born with a large bone structures; I with small ones. You were born with certain anatomical features in your ear. I was born with the same general features, but in different mechanical proportions. The same sound that I hear, as it strikes your eardrum, may move that sensitively streached mambrane in a slightly different manner. Why? We may be of different ages; perhaps my ear mechanism has become more ossified than yours. Perhaps you have had a sinus condition that has affected your hearing mechanism, or perhaps you are a woman and have more sensitive physiological auditory reactions. Our hearing processes grow older, just as our hair grows grayer, our hearing processes change accordingly. All these factors combine to produce different reactions within the inner ear of different individuals. ........"
This makes sense to me. Terry
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Old 16th April 2013, 03:06 AM   #120
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8-10 years to keep it a secret? No measurements? One guy's testimony?
Would Mike be interested in selling the recipe? Kit?
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