People won't ask for stuff they want, or complain about stuff they are unhappy with, if it isn't imperative to their lives and it takes more effort than opening their mouth. Most people have enough small things to tend with as it is already, without making stuff up themselves.
Don't rely on user feedback to know what your customer want. That won't get you anything but mediocre results.
Either because you only get feedback from a very skewed "special" group or because people will "lie" when you ask them actively.
I understand that peoples livelihoods are ultimately at stake here, but fear isn't what got you this far, is it?
I'm not implying that you or Nick are stupid or wussies. I'm just saying, don't let personal tastes or unsubstantiated assumptions about people in general get in the way of good business.
Don't rely on user feedback to know what your customer want. That won't get you anything but mediocre results.
Either because you only get feedback from a very skewed "special" group or because people will "lie" when you ask them actively.
I understand that peoples livelihoods are ultimately at stake here, but fear isn't what got you this far, is it?
I'm not implying that you or Nick are stupid or wussies. I'm just saying, don't let personal tastes or unsubstantiated assumptions about people in general get in the way of good business.
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Mark about the paint, thats actually not a bad idea, although it won't get you the subsurface shattering of the light, that real plastic has.
Scottmoose, in some fields of trade it's customary to send out small sample batches to dealers to test a market before going all in. If the batch should for some inexplicable reason not sell out completely, the dealer will send back the remaining stock and get his money back.
If they don't become a smash-hit, I'm sure there will be a market for a few hundred small handsome drivers somewhere in the US or Japan.
Scottmoose, in some fields of trade it's customary to send out small sample batches to dealers to test a market before going all in. If the batch should for some inexplicable reason not sell out completely, the dealer will send back the remaining stock and get his money back.
If they don't become a smash-hit, I'm sure there will be a market for a few hundred small handsome drivers somewhere in the US or Japan.
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Hi Squeak,
You've got a very negative view about the integrity of DIY audio folks. I don't agree with your view or share your thinking.
Prove us all wrong. Promote and sell 500 cream drivers. Your so sure of the market, with your energy, you can do it.
In the meantime, I've made an effort to solve your colour challenge in my previous posts.
Thanks
Mark.
You've got a very negative view about the integrity of DIY audio folks. I don't agree with your view or share your thinking.
Prove us all wrong. Promote and sell 500 cream drivers. Your so sure of the market, with your energy, you can do it.
In the meantime, I've made an effort to solve your colour challenge in my previous posts.
Thanks
Mark.
I haven't got a negative view of the DIY folks in particular, on the contrary, most of you in here, reading your posts, seem like quite sympathetic and clever guys.
What I'm talking about is just human nature. It's what goes on in most other industries that deals with tangible or audio-visual products of some kind.
Asking me to set up my own business is like asking a critic to make his own better movie if he finds fault in someone elses. Of course it would end in disaster, but that doesn't say much about the critics ability to evaluate the final product.
I can only agree with Mark, and, incidentally, commend his patience given that you appear to be trying to tell him how he should run his business! Always easy to tell someone else what to do when you're not the one taking the major financial risk isn't it?
As he said -if you're so sure of your statements, why not prove them? Don't be, in your own parlance, a 'wussy.' Set up a small business, either order the units in that colour, or paint them per Mark's suggestion to suit, and watch the profits you are certain about roll in. Or when it comes to placing your own finances on the line, are you not quite so sure of the accuracy of your claims?
As he said -if you're so sure of your statements, why not prove them? Don't be, in your own parlance, a 'wussy.' Set up a small business, either order the units in that colour, or paint them per Mark's suggestion to suit, and watch the profits you are certain about roll in. Or when it comes to placing your own finances on the line, are you not quite so sure of the accuracy of your claims?
I can only agree with Mark, and, incidentally, commend his patience given that you appear to be trying to tell him how he should run his business! Always easy to tell someone else what to do when you're not the one taking the major financial risk isn't it?
As he said -if you're so sure of your statements, why not prove them? Don't be, in your own parlance, a 'wussy.' Set up a small business, either order the units in that colour, or paint them per Mark's suggestion to suit, and watch the profits you are certain about roll in. Or when it comes to placing your own finances on the line, are you not quite so sure of the accuracy of your claims?
Asking a person to take on a sudden pretty great financial risk, is something else entirely than suggesting that someone with quite a but of momentum already, do an experiment.
Don't make is sound like I called anyone a wuss.
And you commend his patience? Sure it's nice of him to chip in, but no one forced him to and it he's free to stop posting any time, as he seems to a have chosen to do now.
Sorry Squeak this far too much an excuse. You're busy telling the guys on here that on the one hand you like them, on the other they have a human nature that can't be trusted. I know you mean well but you've gone a bit far and run the risk of starting to offend peoples integrity.
Now you've come with this "critic" thing. You're not the one taking the financial business risk. But you're expecting everyone else to do this. That's not right. Your so sure of what you say, then I'm trying to help face reality. Time to face up to life and go more easy on people and in particular DIY audio guys.
I've done my best to help. Let's see if you can accept the realities of life.
Mark.
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Er, I thought he already had my old fluttering aspen. 
That's the point. Mark has told you that the sand-coloured cones proved not to be popular with buyers, and as a result, the distributors asked for black frames (which have sold, I understand from other sources, like hotcakes). In the words of Clarkson, The Hamster, and Captain Slow 'How Hard Can It Be?'
I see you have declined to actually prove the accuracy of your claims, which would seem to indicate that when you are asked to take the risk, you suddenly become rather less sure of their accuracy.
Like Mark, I think I'll sign off now.
That's the point. Mark has told you that the sand-coloured cones proved not to be popular with buyers, and as a result, the distributors asked for black frames (which have sold, I understand from other sources, like hotcakes). In the words of Clarkson, The Hamster, and Captain Slow 'How Hard Can It Be?'I see you have declined to actually prove the accuracy of your claims, which would seem to indicate that when you are asked to take the risk, you suddenly become rather less sure of their accuracy.
Like Mark, I think I'll sign off now.
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As I understand it the cream coloured ones were never tried on the European market? Or any other market than the Japanese for that matter?
Asking a normal person that doesn't have financial backing, network or infrastructure of any kind to put his money where his mouth is, is a bit unfair isn't it?
I think you are looking for conflict where there is none. I like your driver and would like to have it in the colour that made me pay attention to it originally. If for any multitude of reasons, that I can't and probably shouldn't know about, you can't bring that driver to me, I have to look elsewhere.
Maybe among your other offerings, maybe to other manufactures. That's ultimately a sale lost from you. I think you should know I reasoned like this and that maybe or maybe not, others do too, without you realizing.
I don't know if you got my point about human nature. This is not about people in the DIY community. This is about all humans, all included. People misunderstanding each other through the narrow communication channel that is sales, is not anything new or insulting to anyone in particular. It's just a fact of life.
You may or may not know about these things. If I offended you by telling you something obvious then I apologise. Otherwise I stand by what I said, but not what people chose to read into it.
Scottmoose, you ask me to "prove" what I'm saying, how could I? It's like asking me to prove any kind of psychology. Sure it can be done in some sense, but it takes a lot more work than what can be expected of, or fit a forum post. If you genuinely want academic proof, then read some books on market research.
Asking a normal person that doesn't have financial backing, network or infrastructure of any kind to put his money where his mouth is, is a bit unfair isn't it?
I think you are looking for conflict where there is none. I like your driver and would like to have it in the colour that made me pay attention to it originally. If for any multitude of reasons, that I can't and probably shouldn't know about, you can't bring that driver to me, I have to look elsewhere.
Maybe among your other offerings, maybe to other manufactures. That's ultimately a sale lost from you. I think you should know I reasoned like this and that maybe or maybe not, others do too, without you realizing.
I don't know if you got my point about human nature. This is not about people in the DIY community. This is about all humans, all included. People misunderstanding each other through the narrow communication channel that is sales, is not anything new or insulting to anyone in particular. It's just a fact of life.
You may or may not know about these things. If I offended you by telling you something obvious then I apologise. Otherwise I stand by what I said, but not what people chose to read into it.
Scottmoose, you ask me to "prove" what I'm saying, how could I? It's like asking me to prove any kind of psychology. Sure it can be done in some sense, but it takes a lot more work than what can be expected of, or fit a forum post. If you genuinely want academic proof, then read some books on market research.
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Squeak,
So people running businesses and making things aren't "normal"? Only you are "normal"? Your "lecturing " me and others on how we should run our businesses and our lives; And telling DIYer's they aren't capable of honest communication when buying products. This is not right.
You don't really understand the nature and meaning of your words. Most worrying is this sentence:
"This is not about people in the DIY community. This is about all humans, all included".......
Last time I checked DIYers are human and not from the planet Zorb. DIYers are capable of rational practical communication when deciding which drivers to buy, fully able to communicate. There's plenty of evidence on this and many similar forums to demonstrate these capabilities. I'm confident the vast majority of DIYers can manage their communication with suppliers and vice-versa. They aren't "dumb" or lacking in honesty as you suggest.
I've tried my best to help you. I've offered to try to supply you. I've suggested a colour alternative on the frame. All to no avail. I'd rather you look for an alternative driver. My tolerance level for your level of negativity is limited.
Sadly, the only conclusion that can be drawn is that you court controversy, wishing to offend peoples integrity and character.
Mark
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I am "normal" in the sense than I don't have a business or the ready capital to start one at the word go. Most people on this planet are like that, which in this context makes me normal.
I'm lecturing you now? So I'm not allowed to ask questions or conjecture as to why things are as they are? All because you are Mark Fenlon? Or because I might hurt some of your friends tender feelings?
If I didn't find it so hard to believe, I'd say that you were being patronising and arrogant.
All I'm saying is that it's a possible scenario that dealers are buying stuff based on their personal speculations and assessments about the demand on the market for a given product, and that you as the manufacturer are giving the customers (the dealers) what they want and make orders for.
What I'm suggesting is simply that maybe It would be in all parties involved interest to make it easy for the dealers to market test the discussed model as it apparently never has been given a chance outside Japan.
If you chose to take that as a collective insult on all involved then so be it.
Where exactly have I suggested that "They are dumb or lacking in honesty"?
I've cited some well known facts about how humans behave in general. I haven't singled out the DIY community in any way.
If your business is anything like any other, then you only get feedback from a small percentage of your costumers, and only the demographic that tends to give feedback, and more importantly you don't get feedback from your non-costumers.
I'm not lecturing you on how to do stuff, I'm giving friendly suggestions. How you can take my posts any other way is beyond me.
Frankly the overblown reaction almost gives me the feeling that I somehow inadvertently hit a sore spot.
I'm lecturing you now? So I'm not allowed to ask questions or conjecture as to why things are as they are? All because you are Mark Fenlon? Or because I might hurt some of your friends tender feelings?
If I didn't find it so hard to believe, I'd say that you were being patronising and arrogant.
All I'm saying is that it's a possible scenario that dealers are buying stuff based on their personal speculations and assessments about the demand on the market for a given product, and that you as the manufacturer are giving the customers (the dealers) what they want and make orders for.
What I'm suggesting is simply that maybe It would be in all parties involved interest to make it easy for the dealers to market test the discussed model as it apparently never has been given a chance outside Japan.
If you chose to take that as a collective insult on all involved then so be it.
Where exactly have I suggested that "They are dumb or lacking in honesty"?
I've cited some well known facts about how humans behave in general. I haven't singled out the DIY community in any way.
If your business is anything like any other, then you only get feedback from a small percentage of your costumers, and only the demographic that tends to give feedback, and more importantly you don't get feedback from your non-costumers.
I'm not lecturing you on how to do stuff, I'm giving friendly suggestions. How you can take my posts any other way is beyond me.
Frankly the overblown reaction almost gives me the feeling that I somehow inadvertently hit a sore spot.
Squeak.....this is absurd. If you'd like to discuss the intricacies of human nature and it's relation to business, please sign up on a philosophy/psychology/business forum and outlet there.
I for one, think mark makes some pretty handsome drivers, and is obviously concentrating on improving upon his current offerings (rollout of ver II drivers), and I appreciate it. The cream cones/frames already had a run, and they weren't a hit, thus a trend. It makes no sense from a profit business standpoint to revisit that. If your thinking on "universal human nature business marketing blah blah" rings true, the same will repeat in western markets........so to put it politely at this point, SAVE IT.
Mark- kudos to you. You've contributed more in the form of affordable technologically advanced drivers than any other manufacturer large or small in recent years.
I for one, think mark makes some pretty handsome drivers, and is obviously concentrating on improving upon his current offerings (rollout of ver II drivers), and I appreciate it. The cream cones/frames already had a run, and they weren't a hit, thus a trend. It makes no sense from a profit business standpoint to revisit that. If your thinking on "universal human nature business marketing blah blah" rings true, the same will repeat in western markets........so to put it politely at this point, SAVE IT.
Mark- kudos to you. You've contributed more in the form of affordable technologically advanced drivers than any other manufacturer large or small in recent years.
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You said it. I never intended to take it this far.
Read the thread. I feel I had to give explanations to the things I was being accused of and being misunderstood as saying. Then only to get countered with more misunderstandings. That's why It went out of this totally OT tangent.
Again, as I understand it they had a run in Japan, nowhere else. People even imported them, made colour matching cabs and commended on the looks.
I like the other drivers also, only heard the Alpair 6 though. But the CHP-70 seems unique. In both looks, capabilities and value. I just think it's a shame that it doesn't get to look as unique as it is, having to align to convention.
Squeak, et al -
I'm sure the costs associated in small batch runs of special colours of plastic injections is far greater than painting stamped or cast metal baskets
We should concentrate on thanking Mark for his continual R&D to refine all aspects of design and production of these excellent drivers, as well as his solicitation of our feedback and communication via these forums -rather than waste time bitching about the decisions that result from his calculus of more factors than anyone not in manufacturing and distribution will likely comprehend.
I personally very much prefer the copper color of the Alpair7 vs the gun metal grey, and quite like the bluish tint of new A6P, but could certainly get over myself if for whatever reason Mark elected to change either in future production.
I'm sure the costs associated in small batch runs of special colours of plastic injections is far greater than painting stamped or cast metal baskets
We should concentrate on thanking Mark for his continual R&D to refine all aspects of design and production of these excellent drivers, as well as his solicitation of our feedback and communication via these forums -rather than waste time bitching about the decisions that result from his calculus of more factors than anyone not in manufacturing and distribution will likely comprehend.
I personally very much prefer the copper color of the Alpair7 vs the gun metal grey, and quite like the bluish tint of new A6P, but could certainly get over myself if for whatever reason Mark elected to change either in future production.
I like the sound of my CHR70's so much that I'm planning to also pick up a set of Alpair 7's and 10's for two other rooms.
I like the look of their black frame and copper cones a lot. I didn't make my speakers to look good for others, but to listen to. And I listen to music typically with my eyes closed so if they had pink frames with purple cones, it wouldn't bother me one bit. After all, its all about the sound.
Thanks Mark for making such great products.
<my 2 cents>That said, based on the picture of the CHR-70's on the web site, I think that the beige frames look plastic-ish and imagining myself to be an uninformed consumer purchasing online, I would choose the black frames thinking that they are more solid looking and rigid. (Of course I realize this isn't the case, I'm discussing perception)</my 2 cents>
I like the look of their black frame and copper cones a lot. I didn't make my speakers to look good for others, but to listen to. And I listen to music typically with my eyes closed so if they had pink frames with purple cones, it wouldn't bother me one bit. After all, its all about the sound.
Thanks Mark for making such great products.
<my 2 cents>That said, based on the picture of the CHR-70's on the web site, I think that the beige frames look plastic-ish and imagining myself to be an uninformed consumer purchasing online, I would choose the black frames thinking that they are more solid looking and rigid. (Of course I realize this isn't the case, I'm discussing perception)</my 2 cents>
Squeak - I suppose a third way would be for you to make some delicious cabinets and then put a cover on the front to stop you looking at the black... Each to their own of course, but I quite enjoyed making some Liberty print speaker covers. A bit out of the ordinary, they get positive comments from all guests!
Otherwise if you're trying to get the colour for a small run I second the Humbrol idea. In my experience of many Airfix models I've found that Humbrol enamel and some gloss varnish makes a finish with a deep glossiness that would certainly emulate the sub-surface reflections you like, as the light would reflect off both the varnish and the paint underneath.
Wading into the 'human nature' debate, I think you'd have to get a list of 250 people who would like the cream colour first. It's very easy to think 'I want something therefore there must be others who have a similar demand'. In my experience in the U.K., the colour associated with 'high-end audio' at the moment is black. That's not to say there might not be a demand, but it's tricky for a manufacturer to put out a second run of a product where 250 units haven't sold brilliantly in a country of 120 million people. If the dealers are finding that the black sells better in Japan for example, they're going to keep buying the black.
One can only go on what people say as there is so much choice in everything that putting something out without knowing it'll sell is commercial suicide!
The Humbrol re-painting will be quick and painless and give a result that will look much less 'plasticky' than the original - an Airfix model could be made of anything once it's painted. The best look like anything but plastic!
Otherwise if you're trying to get the colour for a small run I second the Humbrol idea. In my experience of many Airfix models I've found that Humbrol enamel and some gloss varnish makes a finish with a deep glossiness that would certainly emulate the sub-surface reflections you like, as the light would reflect off both the varnish and the paint underneath.
Wading into the 'human nature' debate, I think you'd have to get a list of 250 people who would like the cream colour first. It's very easy to think 'I want something therefore there must be others who have a similar demand'. In my experience in the U.K., the colour associated with 'high-end audio' at the moment is black. That's not to say there might not be a demand, but it's tricky for a manufacturer to put out a second run of a product where 250 units haven't sold brilliantly in a country of 120 million people. If the dealers are finding that the black sells better in Japan for example, they're going to keep buying the black.
One can only go on what people say as there is so much choice in everything that putting something out without knowing it'll sell is commercial suicide!
The Humbrol re-painting will be quick and painless and give a result that will look much less 'plasticky' than the original - an Airfix model could be made of anything once it's painted. The best look like anything but plastic!
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