I know this is a wide open question with room for lots of opinions, but I'm looking for just a few basic ideas with a dash of theory thrown in. I've recently become a fan of single-driver/full range but worry that to get high spl, I'd need a much fatter bank account. Also, multi-way isn't out of the question, particularly in line arrays, but there doesn't seem to be a forum for questions that potentially cross topics like mine.
I'm working out my first tube amp design (lots of reading and building practice, but I'm slow at the theory) and it will have a very low output signal. I'm still working out the design, so can't give any particulars yet. What I want to do is find a good design that balances quality, cost and efficiency. I'm guessing I will need 105dB sensitivity or more, though that's truly a guess. I'm not trying to fill a concert hall though, just a small (13x15 ft or so) living room.
I'm happy to do the grunt work of design, layout, etc., but what I'm looking for is input on what direction to go. Line Array? OB? Full range? Bipole/Dipole? Some hybrid or a combination? I've mostly been reading about line arrays and dipole and bipole variations of line arrays (full range and multi), but am not yet convinced to spend time on one.
Thanks a ton, and sorry for the basic and open-ended question.
I'm working out my first tube amp design (lots of reading and building practice, but I'm slow at the theory) and it will have a very low output signal. I'm still working out the design, so can't give any particulars yet. What I want to do is find a good design that balances quality, cost and efficiency. I'm guessing I will need 105dB sensitivity or more, though that's truly a guess. I'm not trying to fill a concert hall though, just a small (13x15 ft or so) living room.
I'm happy to do the grunt work of design, layout, etc., but what I'm looking for is input on what direction to go. Line Array? OB? Full range? Bipole/Dipole? Some hybrid or a combination? I've mostly been reading about line arrays and dipole and bipole variations of line arrays (full range and multi), but am not yet convinced to spend time on one.
Thanks a ton, and sorry for the basic and open-ended question.
My current system bests this a little, so dual HE 15" in ~20 ft^3 tuned to Fs plus 300-500 Hz compression horn, preferably corner loaded, though with flea power you still won't get to piano bar levels at low distortion.
GM
I should probably have mentioned that there are some VERY inexpensive 2-4" drivers at PE (for instance Newcom QS760 Passive Speaker Pair | Parts-Express.com, which I've read someone did a line array), Madisound and elsewhere (my local electronics warehouse sometimes has great deals on lots that are fine but were mis-ordered or spec'd, e.g. a recent lot of 6" woofers that seem to run quite nicely and were dirt cheap). So a line array doesn't need to be out of the question just because of the number of drivers.
Godzilla, got any specific recommendations? I have a pair of BOFU drivers and I know you've experimented with them. I assume you mean BIGGER!
Tinitus, I don't know of any drivers, pro or otherwise, that would meet my criteria. I'd be grateful for suggestions.
GM, sounds intriguing. I can look into this, but wonder about "piano bar" levels. I don't need live performance levels, but decent upper register and fast response would be helpful.
Thanks all.
Godzilla, got any specific recommendations? I have a pair of BOFU drivers and I know you've experimented with them. I assume you mean BIGGER!
Tinitus, I don't know of any drivers, pro or otherwise, that would meet my criteria. I'd be grateful for suggestions.
GM, sounds intriguing. I can look into this, but wonder about "piano bar" levels. I don't need live performance levels, but decent upper register and fast response would be helpful.
Thanks all.
Check this thread out http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/178806-s16-constant-directivity-dipoles-6.html
http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=150939
http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=150939
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Funny you should mention this - my thoughts lately have been leaning towards high efficiency also. I think you will lots of folks here with big all horn systems that enjoy extremely high efficiency.
There seem to be lots of ways to get there. Compression drivers and horns, bass horns, subwoofer horns... horns horns horns. Line array is another option. Size matters and so, having enough space is probably a good start.
For me, more than being able to produce live levels, high efficiency is about getting that 'real' palpable quality in the reproduced music.
Following this thread intently.
There seem to be lots of ways to get there. Compression drivers and horns, bass horns, subwoofer horns... horns horns horns. Line array is another option. Size matters and so, having enough space is probably a good start.
For me, more than being able to produce live levels, high efficiency is about getting that 'real' palpable quality in the reproduced music.
Following this thread intently.
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Joined 2009
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Well now, I'll offer a completely different suggestion - just because...
I built my first tube amp last year, a SET with a gain of 1.8 and maybe a good solid 1W output.
I have plans for big speakers - but it's plenty of work and some expense and I'd suggest a smaller simpler project first.
Believe it or not, and I wouldn't have if not for having done the experiment myself - a very small inefficient speaker does work with a low power SET. I am currently using a pair of 85dB inefficient speakers with my SET until I get around to building something larger. The sound is fine in a fairly generous room for easy listening so long as the kids are not around.
The sound quality is fantastic - a long time tube fanatic friend of mine was gobsmacked.
So maybe you want to try something simple and inexpensive to get your hands dirty before you get the big driver and build that perfect BLH.
I built my first tube amp last year, a SET with a gain of 1.8 and maybe a good solid 1W output.
I have plans for big speakers - but it's plenty of work and some expense and I'd suggest a smaller simpler project first.
Believe it or not, and I wouldn't have if not for having done the experiment myself - a very small inefficient speaker does work with a low power SET. I am currently using a pair of 85dB inefficient speakers with my SET until I get around to building something larger. The sound is fine in a fairly generous room for easy listening so long as the kids are not around.
The sound quality is fantastic - a long time tube fanatic friend of mine was gobsmacked.
So maybe you want to try something simple and inexpensive to get your hands dirty before you get the big driver and build that perfect BLH.
Well, if it's really 105dB you're after, that's what the Klipschorn does, so perhaps go for something like that? A big woofer, placed in the corner for added boundary gain, should be able to do what you're after.
Oh, and as for line arrays. a 25 driver array (5Sx5P), which for 4"ers is already 2.5m tall, will get you a +12dB gain in efficiency by my calculations. So if you want 105dB, you'll need 93dB sensitive 4" drivers, which is not an easy task either, especially when you're looking for something cheap.
Oh, and as for line arrays. a 25 driver array (5Sx5P), which for 4"ers is already 2.5m tall, will get you a +12dB gain in efficiency by my calculations. So if you want 105dB, you'll need 93dB sensitive 4" drivers, which is not an easy task either, especially when you're looking for something cheap.
Ha. I know, I know, lots of people think that way, and I understand. Here's a thread, though, that got me thinking about line arrays: Twisterspeakers DIY loudspeaker projects: Line array speaker project. They're still $0.69 each (not sure how many they have left though), so I was toying with ordering a bunch (like 30 pair, but I hate the thought of tossing all those plastic housings). Also, I have 9 1/2 foot ceilings that make a line array BIG (OK, that kinda works for the "go big or go home" theory, but really now...) - though they are patterned tin and the floors are hardwood, so the "infinite line" idea might work.Woody, thanks for the link. I haven't been over to AudioAsylum for awhile, and didn't know about that forum.
c2cthomas, whoa, waveguides for some reason didn't make my radar, and should have. But oh
how'm I gonna get through all that? Guess I'll be spending some quality time on my laptop in my LR with Diana, Holly, Billie, Ella and the like in the background.Having built a 1W SET before and used with 88 or 89dB speakers (some Boston Acoustics A40s, Wharfdales, etc.), I know that combination is fine for nearly all of my listening (in fact, I'd agree it sounds quite nice). Problem is, what I'm talking about is a battery powered tube amp putting out probably a bit less than 1/2W. High efficiency is paramount, so no 89dB speakers. And I'm not expecting a LOUD presentation even with 105dB or higher. Loud isn't even close to a goal for me.
Well, I hadn't run any numbers yet, so this is a helpful start. I've been reading the Griffin article on line arrays (one link here: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...wN3YCA&usg=AFQjCNGcFK-g7oHhK7Oxu_v3GiLylNsUjw) but haven't yet plunged into numbers. Still pulling together all the various considerations for them.
Please keep in mind I'm balancing a number of objectives on a number of projects, all at once. It's actually a system I want to build, not individual components. Cost, quality and efficiency are at the top of the list, but simplicity and traditional aesthetics (WAF) would be nice too (in other words, no giant horns)...ha!
The most efficient driver i've encountered is the Eminence Beta 12lta. I am not suggesting you use this driver but want to make the point that a 12" wide range pro driver is more efficient than the BOFU or any of the Fostex i've used and own. I think seeking high efficiency is a nobel cause and enjoy my listening sessions very much. If you can go BIG perhaps this driver in a BIB would prove a good compromise... it will be tall and wide tho rather than tall and thin like a line array you seem interested in. I've never build a line array so can't comment. The speaker using the Econowave should also be very efficient. The Klipschorn is another interesting suggestion. I've heard the Heresy's and Belle's and found them very efficient compared to all of the other speakers on display. GM suggests very large boxes using large and efficient drivers. Pro audio recognizes the need for filling a large room with sound (like a movie theater) and probably offers the most comprehensive designs when it comes to this. I say, investigate pro drivers and see if they can fit your needs... oh, Eminence offers a great line array speaker here
Eminence Alphalite 6A 6" Neo Midrange Driver | Parts-Express.com
Eminence Delta Pro-8A 8" Midrange 8 Ohm | Parts-Express.com
Imagine a line array with those.
Just some suggestions.
Eminence Alphalite 6A 6" Neo Midrange Driver | Parts-Express.com
Eminence Delta Pro-8A 8" Midrange 8 Ohm | Parts-Express.com
Imagine a line array with those.
Just some suggestions.
Well, this is strictly the gain in sensitivity by the added cone area. If you get a floor to ceiling array, making an infinite line, you should in theory get an additional 6dB, making for a total boost of 18dB!
Acoustic piano bar levels is ~the same as what you get at the movies for vocals, musical scores (ignoring any LFE) that constitutes what most folks consider loud for home HIFI.
With typical low efficiency speakers, this sounds really loud due to the high levels of distortion usually encountered, but with HE systems we tend to listen much louder on average since distortion is what we use to guide us; so all I'm saying is that with flea power your available dynamic headroom will be about the same or even less than with a typical low efficiency system due to amp distortion rather than speaker distortion.
Within the amp's low distortion limits though, the HE system will typically sound more open, natural, detailed, etc. and if horns are used, there's less room reflections to 'smear' the sound-stage plus there's a certain synergy between a high output impedance amp and an exponential compression horn since its 'smiley face' EQ is the inverse of the horn's response.
GM
Yeah, 30 ft^3 cabs is a small price to pay for high def music and to fill in the bottom end, a tapped TL to do double duty as a base for it.
GM
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I agree with this totally. whether full range or multiway. a nice 8" fullranger might be good, or even a bigger fullranger driver.
4 or 6 small valve monoblocs might be quite nice...glowing away...hopefully the 'right' blue...and im not even a valve fan!
horns would be nice, if only for the mids and up in a 2 way with a large woofer....2 18" pro subs on Hframe or something like that is what id try myeslf, with a decent large mid horn. but thats for ultimate efficiency. i think your room maybe slightly small for something that big. i have a similar room, and i dont think i could tolerate anything bigger than a 8-10" speaker before the speakers were so close together i was practically listening in mono.....
with that id say a small but efficient multiway or a 8" fullranger. loads to choose from.
Tube, 105 dB, in 13x15 ft
Hello,
your room is to small,
your listening distance to low,
your amp need a poti where you can put 0,0001 Watt.
in your case you don´t need 105 dB,
i think even 100 dB would be extrem loud.
If you will high eff. and low cost, and specially you need for the Tube
a very linear impedance than look at my horn constructions:
POSAUNE XL, RDH 20, SAXOPHON with measureements and feedbacks,
in your case a Schalmei sathorn with one aktive sub with sat crossover
for your tube would be enough in your small room:
posaune
saxophon
RDH
Hello,
your room is to small,
your listening distance to low,
your amp need a poti where you can put 0,0001 Watt.
in your case you don´t need 105 dB,
i think even 100 dB would be extrem loud.
If you will high eff. and low cost, and specially you need for the Tube
a very linear impedance than look at my horn constructions:
POSAUNE XL, RDH 20, SAXOPHON with measureements and feedbacks,
in your case a Schalmei sathorn with one aktive sub with sat crossover
for your tube would be enough in your small room:
posaune
saxophon
RDH
Attachments
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