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Old 25th January 2011, 02:35 AM   #11
jwmbro is offline jwmbro  United States
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Well, if it's really 105dB you're after, that's what the Klipschorn does, so perhaps go for something like that? A big woofer, placed in the corner for added boundary gain, should be able to do what you're after.

Oh, and as for line arrays. a 25 driver array (5Sx5P), which for 4"ers is already 2.5m tall, will get you a +12dB gain in efficiency by my calculations. So if you want 105dB, you'll need 93dB sensitive 4" drivers, which is not an easy task either, especially when you're looking for something cheap.
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Old 25th January 2011, 03:03 AM   #12
Carlp is offline Carlp  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frperdurabo View Post
Efficiency? Go big, or go home.
Ha. I know, I know, lots of people think that way, and I understand. Here's a thread, though, that got me thinking about line arrays: Twisterspeakers DIY loudspeaker projects: Line array speaker project. They're still $0.69 each (not sure how many they have left though), so I was toying with ordering a bunch (like 30 pair, but I hate the thought of tossing all those plastic housings). Also, I have 9 1/2 foot ceilings that make a line array BIG (OK, that kinda works for the "go big or go home" theory, but really now...) - though they are patterned tin and the floors are hardwood, so the "infinite line" idea might work.

Woody, thanks for the link. I haven't been over to AudioAsylum for awhile, and didn't know about that forum.

c2cthomas, whoa, waveguides for some reason didn't make my radar, and should have. But oh how'm I gonna get through all that? Guess I'll be spending some quality time on my laptop in my LR with Diana, Holly, Billie, Ella and the like in the background.
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Old 25th January 2011, 03:21 AM   #13
Carlp is offline Carlp  United States
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Originally Posted by Bigun View Post
Well now, I'll offer a completely different suggestion - just because...

Believe it or not, and I wouldn't have if not for having done the experiment myself - a very small inefficient speaker does work with a low power SET. I am currently using a pair of 85dB inefficient speakers with my SET until I get around to building something larger. The sound is fine in a fairly generous room for easy listening so long as the kids are not around.
Having built a 1W SET before and used with 88 or 89dB speakers (some Boston Acoustics A40s, Wharfdales, etc.), I know that combination is fine for nearly all of my listening (in fact, I'd agree it sounds quite nice). Problem is, what I'm talking about is a battery powered tube amp putting out probably a bit less than 1/2W. High efficiency is paramount, so no 89dB speakers. And I'm not expecting a LOUD presentation even with 105dB or higher. Loud isn't even close to a goal for me.

Quote:
Oh, and as for line arrays. a 25 driver array (5Sx5P), which for 4"ers is already 2.5m tall, will get you a +12dB gain in efficiency by my calculations. So if you want 105dB, you'll need 93dB sensitive 4" drivers, which is not an easy task either, especially when you're looking for something cheap.
Well, I hadn't run any numbers yet, so this is a helpful start. I've been reading the Griffin article on line arrays (one link here: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sourc...u_v3GiLylNsUjw) but haven't yet plunged into numbers. Still pulling together all the various considerations for them.

Please keep in mind I'm balancing a number of objectives on a number of projects, all at once. It's actually a system I want to build, not individual components. Cost, quality and efficiency are at the top of the list, but simplicity and traditional aesthetics (WAF) would be nice too (in other words, no giant horns)...ha!
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Old 25th January 2011, 03:36 AM   #14
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The most efficient driver i've encountered is the Eminence Beta 12lta. I am not suggesting you use this driver but want to make the point that a 12" wide range pro driver is more efficient than the BOFU or any of the Fostex i've used and own. I think seeking high efficiency is a nobel cause and enjoy my listening sessions very much. If you can go BIG perhaps this driver in a BIB would prove a good compromise... it will be tall and wide tho rather than tall and thin like a line array you seem interested in. I've never build a line array so can't comment. The speaker using the Econowave should also be very efficient. The Klipschorn is another interesting suggestion. I've heard the Heresy's and Belle's and found them very efficient compared to all of the other speakers on display. GM suggests very large boxes using large and efficient drivers. Pro audio recognizes the need for filling a large room with sound (like a movie theater) and probably offers the most comprehensive designs when it comes to this. I say, investigate pro drivers and see if they can fit your needs... oh, Eminence offers a great line array speaker here

Eminence Alphalite 6A 6" Neo Midrange Driver | Parts-Express.com

Eminence Delta Pro-8A 8" Midrange 8 Ohm | Parts-Express.com

Imagine a line array with those.

Just some suggestions.
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Old 25th January 2011, 03:46 AM   #15
jwmbro is offline jwmbro  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlp View Post
Well, I hadn't run any numbers yet, so this is a helpful start. I've been reading the Griffin article on line arrays (one link here: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sourc...u_v3GiLylNsUjw) but haven't yet plunged into numbers. Still pulling together all the various considerations for them.

Please keep in mind I'm balancing a number of objectives on a number of projects, all at once. It's actually a system I want to build, not individual components. Cost, quality and efficiency are at the top of the list, but simplicity and traditional aesthetics (WAF) would be nice too (in other words, no giant horns)...ha!
Well, this is strictly the gain in sensitivity by the added cone area. If you get a floor to ceiling array, making an infinite line, you should in theory get an additional 6dB, making for a total boost of 18dB!
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Old 25th January 2011, 06:20 AM   #16
Tom V is offline Tom V  United States
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Jensen Imperials? Big, big, speakers, little tiny amp?

DECWARE Imperial Folded Horn
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Old 25th January 2011, 06:51 AM   #17
GM is online now GM  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlp View Post
GM, sounds intriguing. I can look into this, but wonder about "piano bar" levels. I don't need live performance levels, but decent upper register and fast response would be helpful.
Acoustic piano bar levels is ~the same as what you get at the movies for vocals, musical scores (ignoring any LFE) that constitutes what most folks consider loud for home HIFI.

With typical low efficiency speakers, this sounds really loud due to the high levels of distortion usually encountered, but with HE systems we tend to listen much louder on average since distortion is what we use to guide us; so all I'm saying is that with flea power your available dynamic headroom will be about the same or even less than with a typical low efficiency system due to amp distortion rather than speaker distortion.

Within the amp's low distortion limits though, the HE system will typically sound more open, natural, detailed, etc. and if horns are used, there's less room reflections to 'smear' the sound-stage plus there's a certain synergy between a high output impedance amp and an exponential compression horn since its 'smiley face' EQ is the inverse of the horn's response.

GM
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Old 25th January 2011, 07:00 AM   #18
GM is online now GM  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom V View Post
Jensen Imperials?
Yeah, 30 ft^3 cabs is a small price to pay for high def music and to fill in the bottom end, a tapped TL to do double duty as a base for it.

GM
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Old 25th January 2011, 07:37 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godzilla View Post
Large, efficient drivers.
I agree with this totally. whether full range or multiway. a nice 8" fullranger might be good, or even a bigger fullranger driver.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tinitus View Post
active 3way with "pro" drivers would my choise
4 or 6 small valve monoblocs might be quite nice...glowing away...hopefully the 'right' blue...and im not even a valve fan!

Quote:
Originally Posted by frperdurabo View Post
Efficiency? Go big, or go home.
horns would be nice, if only for the mids and up in a 2 way with a large woofer....2 18" pro subs on Hframe or something like that is what id try myeslf, with a decent large mid horn. but thats for ultimate efficiency. i think your room maybe slightly small for something that big. i have a similar room, and i dont think i could tolerate anything bigger than a 8-10" speaker before the speakers were so close together i was practically listening in mono.....

with that id say a small but efficient multiway or a 8" fullranger. loads to choose from.
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Old 25th January 2011, 08:02 AM   #20
hm is offline hm  Europe
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Default Tube, 105 dB, in 13x15 ft

Hello,
your room is to small,
your listening distance to low,
your amp need a poti where you can put 0,0001 Watt.

in your case you don´t need 105 dB,
i think even 100 dB would be extrem loud.

If you will high eff. and low cost, and specially you need for the Tube
a very linear impedance than look at my horn constructions:
POSAUNE XL, RDH 20, SAXOPHON with measureements and feedbacks,
in your case a Schalmei sathorn with one aktive sub with sat crossover
for your tube would be enough in your small room:
posaune
saxophon
RDH
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Last edited by hm; 25th January 2011 at 08:06 AM.
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