Disclaimer: Yes, I have searched....extensively. Dynamics......complex low low bass lines, kick drums, guitar shredding, etc.
Due to my recent acquisition of some fe127e drivers I'm planning a side project as a housewarming gift for a friend......the preliminary plan is the fonken floorstander mkII, w/ a sub (w8-740p) playing down to 30ish hz. This friend happens to LOVE hard complex rock/metal (pantera, mudvayne, RATM, etc. etc.).
From my scouring this forum and others, it seems a satisfying listening experience (within the hard rock genre) can? be achieved by relieving the FR driver mains of <100hz input. I can do this easily in the digital realm as I'll also be gifting him my old SS reveiver.
The Q is......am I urinating up a rope here, or am I on the right track? Myself? I love the fullrange sound, but for a rock junkie who also sings lead in a hard rock band, will this plan be ultimately disappointing?
Critique invited. I can post my sims of the sub if needed. Thanks in advance for any input.
Due to my recent acquisition of some fe127e drivers I'm planning a side project as a housewarming gift for a friend......the preliminary plan is the fonken floorstander mkII, w/ a sub (w8-740p) playing down to 30ish hz. This friend happens to LOVE hard complex rock/metal (pantera, mudvayne, RATM, etc. etc.).
From my scouring this forum and others, it seems a satisfying listening experience (within the hard rock genre) can? be achieved by relieving the FR driver mains of <100hz input. I can do this easily in the digital realm as I'll also be gifting him my old SS reveiver.
The Q is......am I urinating up a rope here, or am I on the right track? Myself? I love the fullrange sound, but for a rock junkie who also sings lead in a hard rock band, will this plan be ultimately disappointing?
Critique invited. I can post my sims of the sub if needed. Thanks in advance for any input.
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I've got a fostex 108 which plays 300Hz up with a 12" prosound driver from there down. That certainly helps with the dynamics... it's still no match for a compression driver though. Have you seen the various econowave threads? If I was building something for someone who really wanted to rock I would start with something more along those lines. Or possibly a Emenince Beta 12lta.
Joe
Joe
>>> This friend happens to LOVE hard complex rock/metal...
>>> a sub (w8-740p)...
>>> Maybe you should make some headphones out of them.
Lol, Nelson! I have 127e and that beefy TB sub too. It's not very efficient and will require power to goose it right. I'm curious what cabinet you're using with it?
My 127e's are hooked up to Onkyo solid state and the whole setup remains off for months at a time. They got much more play time when the cheap Sonic Impact amp was in place and more still with the Cary tube amp... but i aint no metal head (not that there's anything wrong with that).
>>> a sub (w8-740p)...
>>> Maybe you should make some headphones out of them.
Lol, Nelson! I have 127e and that beefy TB sub too. It's not very efficient and will require power to goose it right. I'm curious what cabinet you're using with it?
My 127e's are hooked up to Onkyo solid state and the whole setup remains off for months at a time. They got much more play time when the cheap Sonic Impact amp was in place and more still with the Cary tube amp... but i aint no metal head (not that there's anything wrong with that).
Does your old receiver have links between the preamp and amp? If so, I suggest driving the sub(s) from the preamp, and using at least a single cap as a high pass filter for the mains. You need to know the input impedance of the amp section to get the value(s) right.
Paul
Wild Burro Audio Labs - DIY Full Range Speakers
Paul
Wild Burro Audio Labs - DIY Full Range Speakers
You can still use that tiny Fostex, you just need a pair of Goldwood GW-1858 and some wood: http://www.quarter-wave.com/Project08/Jordan.pdf
That will rock!
That will rock!
i like a bit or Pantera myself, and one thing ill say is:
go with the sub, XO the fostex somewhere suitable.
but imho the most important thing:
i dont know the frequency response of the driver in question but with any guitar music, due to the use of presence controls on amplifiers, certain fullrangers may sound 'harsh' IF there is any significant peaks in output around 3-4k. Other than that theres no reason it couldnt sound great. i kinda agree that maybe a big mid-HF horn might do a better job with a 12" or bigger woofer, if only in the polar response higher up in frequency. but then with the fostex, you could go OB and for the sub: H frame or even just 'normal' vented, sealed etc
go with the sub, XO the fostex somewhere suitable.
but imho the most important thing:
i dont know the frequency response of the driver in question but with any guitar music, due to the use of presence controls on amplifiers, certain fullrangers may sound 'harsh' IF there is any significant peaks in output around 3-4k. Other than that theres no reason it couldnt sound great. i kinda agree that maybe a big mid-HF horn might do a better job with a 12" or bigger woofer, if only in the polar response higher up in frequency. but then with the fostex, you could go OB and for the sub: H frame or even just 'normal' vented, sealed etc
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I'm quite familiar with this driver and the particular enclosure steviedon has in mind, and while the FE127 is (was) not the "harshest" of the 12X series, it does have some issues a little higher ( circa 6-7k), particularly when driven hard, that can be substantially reduced by certain treatments.
Several other models in the FE/FF series have been used in OBs, (notably FF85K and FE126E), but the floor space required for them to work best (even an H frame) is not always available - which the selection of FS Fonken design suggests.
In a smallish room a single powered woofer XO between 100-120 would be a neighborhood in which the 127 could still do well in lower midrange dynamics up to moderately high levels. This is within the range of line level low pass filters on most compact pre-fab subs (or you could build your own). Keep in mind that to gain full benefit, you'd want to HP the Fostex, and the passive speaker level networks on cheaper plate amps is not their strong point, and not all are easily accessible for modification/ parts upgrade.
And of course, the end user might not be as discriminating as the builder, and non-destructive distortion or harshness might be quite acceptable.
Thanks chris! Your thoughts hold the most weight for me thus far. I was planning as a starting point of 100ish hz for the sub to take the reigns, and cut the fonkens off @ 90hz or so. Those #'s are not concrete, as I can move in either direction in 10hz increments with the receivers integrated crossover.
I'm sure my buddy will be happy. His stage sound is usually very good when he gigs, but to my knowledge he has never heard well designed home speakers.
Here's the sim of the sub W8-740p, +6db of eq @ 30hz
I'm sure my buddy will be happy. His stage sound is usually very good when he gigs, but to my knowledge he has never heard well designed home speakers.
Here's the sim of the sub W8-740p, +6db of eq @ 30hz
Attachments
No sir, just a sealed alignment. It's only feasible with the eq in place. Before I finalize the fonken+sub plan....any thoughts as to the addition of a rear mounted super tweeter of some kind, just to add some sizzle/sparkle to those high hats and crashes, or are the fe127e bright enough that adding a tweet would be redundant?
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As a thought...
If you made the subwoofer(s ?) into stands, you could have a lot more cabinet volume to play around with ported designs. Adding eq to a sealed cabinet doesn't do SPL output any favours, which seems to have been the point of this thread.
Anyway, it might be an idea to involve him in finalising the design - add an Lpad and tweeter to each side, adjust the volumes till he gives you the thumbs up. If they're not playing, then there's no reason to keep them.
If you made the subwoofer(s ?) into stands, you could have a lot more cabinet volume to play around with ported designs. Adding eq to a sealed cabinet doesn't do SPL output any favours, which seems to have been the point of this thread.
Anyway, it might be an idea to involve him in finalising the design - add an Lpad and tweeter to each side, adjust the volumes till he gives you the thumbs up. If they're not playing, then there's no reason to keep them.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
FF85K in small TL, CSS SDX7 side mounted woofer - line level XO approx 300Hzs. No reason couldn't be scaled up to larger driver(s)
Then there's a separate enclosure for stand /woofers. Dave no doubt has photos / drawings of such that we did for Fonken127 a while ago. It was playing around with a smaller version of this and the microFonken that lead to the Tysen design posted above.
I'd be careful with design consultation with the end user, other than over finish colors, etc., it can be, how we say "counterproductive"
I haven't tried this, but...
Regarding getting the most sound out of your FR drivers, I learned something a while back in an unrelated project.
I made a pair of 2-way speakers out of cheap PA stuff from MCM. (Thread: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/154305-xo-help-cheap-pa-drivers-2.html) RCW popped in and told me that my cheapo 12" would be happiest restricting it's xmax with a QB5 alignment box. Evidently you select a bass tuning frequency for your ported box that results in the most efficient coupling of the driver and the port, rather than the flattest. You end up with a hump in your bass response that you have to eq out, but you get way more sound per xmax. If I understand correctly, anyway.
QB5 article link here: Satellites and Subwoofers
I haven't tried it, and I don't know if it would be appropriate for a FR driver, but at the time I thought it might be an interesting trick for anyone wishing for more sonic output in a limited XMax situation. Maybe it's a trick that's best for PA and not really for Hi-Fi. I dunno.
I'd be interested to hear anyone's thoughts or experiences with this type of setup.
Regarding getting the most sound out of your FR drivers, I learned something a while back in an unrelated project.
I made a pair of 2-way speakers out of cheap PA stuff from MCM. (Thread: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/154305-xo-help-cheap-pa-drivers-2.html) RCW popped in and told me that my cheapo 12" would be happiest restricting it's xmax with a QB5 alignment box. Evidently you select a bass tuning frequency for your ported box that results in the most efficient coupling of the driver and the port, rather than the flattest. You end up with a hump in your bass response that you have to eq out, but you get way more sound per xmax. If I understand correctly, anyway.
QB5 article link here: Satellites and Subwoofers
I haven't tried it, and I don't know if it would be appropriate for a FR driver, but at the time I thought it might be an interesting trick for anyone wishing for more sonic output in a limited XMax situation. Maybe it's a trick that's best for PA and not really for Hi-Fi. I dunno.
I'd be interested to hear anyone's thoughts or experiences with this type of setup.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
FF85K in small TL, CSS SDX7 side mounted woofer - line level XO approx 300Hzs. No reason couldn't be scaled up to larger driver(s)
Then there's a separate enclosure for stand /woofers. Dave no doubt has photos / drawings of such that we did for Fonken127 a while ago. It was playing around with a smaller version of this and the microFonken that lead to the Tysen design posted above.
I'd be careful with design consultation with the end user, other than over finish colors, etc., it can be, how we say "counterproductive"
I built some speakers based loosely on Tysen a while ago. Mine involved cheaper Visaton units, the FR driver sounded okay until pushed, then it all fell apart. The woofers, however, were hardly moving...
I'm moving toward the seperate speakers and subwoofer-stands in my next build (should commence this weekend), with a pair of tapped horns, with a TB W1139-SG per side.
I'm still curious about how well crossing a driver over deals with cone break up. I've only tried 1st order line level at 80Hz, but if more's to be had...
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