Since these indirect reflections are delayed by about 1 ms per 34 cm of path-length they should account for timbral perception only anyway.
With my simple experiment the soundstage was getting more diffuse but on the other hand it could also be enjoyed at less ideal locations.
To make it work properly I would have to be made adjustable (level and highpass frequency) anyways I assume. It would offer one more tool to choose the best compromise for a given situation.
Regards
Charles
With my simple experiment the soundstage was getting more diffuse but on the other hand it could also be enjoyed at less ideal locations.
To make it work properly I would have to be made adjustable (level and highpass frequency) anyways I assume. It would offer one more tool to choose the best compromise for a given situation.
Regards
Charles
the Holoprofil works , its like as discribed on the Manger-Website .
The Tweeter-Thingie on the Backside destroys that what a Manger
makes a Manger , why make such _Spielchen_ ?
@ Horst ,
i know that your Horn-Enclosures are for many different Loudspeakers ,
but on the plan it says for Manger MSW .
Jürgen
The Tweeter-Thingie on the Backside destroys that what a Manger
makes a Manger , why make such _Spielchen_ ?
@ Horst ,
i know that your Horn-Enclosures are for many different Loudspeakers ,
but on the plan it says for Manger MSW .
Jürgen
I'd rather make a "Spielchen" with a rather expensive tweeter that is still cheaper than buying an overpriced "Spielzeug" whose function is rather obscure.
What is happening with the sound from the part of the MSW that is covered by the holoprofil ? I assume it is dispersed away somewhere and will also arrive as late reflection - the same way as the "Spielchen" does.
And by halving a sound-source's lateral width by half you don't eliminate its beaming properties. You simply move them upwards by an octave.
Regards
Charles
What is happening with the sound from the part of the MSW that is covered by the holoprofil ? I assume it is dispersed away somewhere and will also arrive as late reflection - the same way as the "Spielchen" does.
And by halving a sound-source's lateral width by half you don't eliminate its beaming properties. You simply move them upwards by an octave.
Regards
Charles
Hi Charles ,
its not the _sound_ with the Holoprofil , its the image , so the Holoprofil
covers the half side of the MSW , that normaly confuses the brain .
With good recordings you get a better picture , more fokus , if the recording
has that element that lets the manger be that what a manger is ( timedomain ).
As example , Doug Saxs One Point with the Kodo Drummers , than you mean
the _Mainzelmännchen_ are in the room and playing these little drums , with the
Bamboosticks , the _Kantenschläge_ are as in real life , with a good system !
The clicks in the room , the natural _noises_ or echos unsw.
Jürgen
its not the _sound_ with the Holoprofil , its the image , so the Holoprofil
covers the half side of the MSW , that normaly confuses the brain .
With good recordings you get a better picture , more fokus , if the recording
has that element that lets the manger be that what a manger is ( timedomain ).
As example , Doug Saxs One Point with the Kodo Drummers , than you mean
the _Mainzelmännchen_ are in the room and playing these little drums , with the
Bamboosticks , the _Kantenschläge_ are as in real life , with a good system !
The clicks in the room , the natural _noises_ or echos unsw.
Jürgen
Care to elaborate about how the other half side of the MSW does manage to "normaly confuse the brain"?
BTW: I`ve read the MSW website about how this Holoprofil thingy is supposed to work but the only thing that "confuses my brain" is the very description about it. Maybe that I just don`t get it but IMO this is only a very crypted effort to paraphrase a simple diffusor device.
A Lowther with a backloaded horn was one of my very first DIY projects (I was proud like hell of my concrete casted horns).
From what I remember they sounded exactly as You described them, "jumping out" is really the key word here. Wonderfully vivid for example with percussion or the "You are there" feeling with solo instruments music and maybe Jazz with few instruments.
But with anything else for example orchestral music or voices (let alone anything "Rock") they were just dreadful, clearly coloured and thin (forward) sounding.
For my taste unbearable in the long run and I quickly sold them.
To their defense I must admit that the horn was way to small to produce any real bass which only emphasized their midrange colorations. On the other hand the Lowther drivers I had was the model with the already more "uniform" midrange frequency response among all their models at that time (I believe it was a PM2C?). At this time I was still unexperienced in crossovers otherwise I`d have tried what I`d do today, some sort of midrange EQ. Still, I highly doubt that even with this I`d have ever become satiesfied with any of them.
A Manger is a completely different animal and I wouldn`t hesitate a second to choose them over any Lowther.
Now that I`m at it (going way back in time) I remember. My very first DIY speaker was a Fostex fullranger in a BR enclosure (a 6" driver with a cast frame, FW..anything). This was a much more "complete" and enjoyable speaker than the Lowther. I thought that the "king of fullrangers" (at that time Lowthers) must be better than this but in fact it was, to my very disappointment, a step backwards.
Hi!
Interesting. I think that Lowthers with the newer rolled back whizzers are very much tamed perhaps from the ones you tried and really they were designed as horn drivers. The top is there giving incredible detail and openness and without reinforcement that top gives the impression you desribe of being thin. A back horn merely reinforces the bass. It's when you put on a 150Hz front horn that Lowthers are really equalised and start to sing.
And then you get the idea of the Mangers above 150Hz too . . . but without the fantastic detail you hear on the Lowthers.
You might be quite intrigued were you to go back to a _good_ pair of Lowthers. The modern TP1 cabinet gives good bass reinforcement, a 150Hz front horn . . . and really this was the sort of design originally intended . . . and it hasn't been greatly surpassed in all the years since the original design.
I've been using EX4s in the front horn setup - very smooth, and the newer PM2C units with rolled back whizzer with a giant doorknob sized phaseplug in the TP1s and they sound better than the EX4s in those cabinets. I have also tried Audio Nirvana . . . and they are good - very good - but I gravitate back to the extra detail of the Lowthers. Perhaps in a back loaded horn without a front horn, the Audio Nirvanas would be supreme and not have the disadvantages you ascribed to your original backhorn Lowther experiments. . . . ?
Best wsihes
David P
Hi Christoph ,
meant only in direct comparison a Manger without / with Holoprofil ,
the Holoprofil covers the half side of the Manger and that helps to
locate things ( the soundstage ) better .
With _normal_ recordings there may be little advantage , but with recordings
like the One Points unsw. it helps .
This is more for classic or music with unamplified instruments , in a naturale
room unsw. . But normaly someone can hear this with every type of music .
For more information see the manger-website .
Jürgen
meant only in direct comparison a Manger without / with Holoprofil ,
the Holoprofil covers the half side of the Manger and that helps to
locate things ( the soundstage ) better .
With _normal_ recordings there may be little advantage , but with recordings
like the One Points unsw. it helps .
This is more for classic or music with unamplified instruments , in a naturale
room unsw. . But normaly someone can hear this with every type of music .
For more information see the manger-website .
Jürgen
Here is a Step Response measurement of a conventional loudspeaker on and off axis and the second picture is the Step response of the Manger with Holoprofile. The argument is that the origin of sound ( point in time-space ) with the Holoprofile is constant over angle and that a conventional loudspeaker smears the origin over angle. It is argued that the 3-dimensional imaging is more stable over a wider range of angles. I do not find that hard to understand, ones you have made the transition from transferfunction ( amplitude response and phase, frequency domain ) to step response ( time domain ).
Attachments
Hi!
Well it's a case of horses for courses perhaps and what things are designed to do. The Lowther was really developed by Voigt for a front loaded horn and or front and back loading, as in the TP1 and Audiovector . . . whereas the Fostex are for much more universal application. Out of the box, I love the sound of Audio Nirvana but they don't have the transparency of Lowther in a front horn design.
Possibly in an unloaded front design, many would say that they are better balanced. . . But I'm intrigued by the W8-1880 that I'm reading about on this forum. . .
The Mangers are certainly uncoloured, neutral, but attuning to resonances that I thought were in front horns with Lowthers, I'm wondering if resonances I'm hearing with Mangers are on live broadcast signals rather than either of the speakers at all . . .
If there's something in the original signal that you don't want to hear, then the Mangers seem much better at not annoying you with it . . . The cororally is also true: the Lowthers provide a magnifying glass into the detail.
Best wishes
David P
Hi David ,
don`t know what type of Mangers you mean , maybe its the Manger Diskus or so .
That resonance thingie reminds me of the first Generation of Zeroboxes .
As Joachim said earlier they had a crossover region between 100-150 to the
woofers . On most Hifi-Shop locations this was critical to resonances
( room or other speakers in the same room ) , because the woofers + the mangers
are very fast , not boomy or so . Mr. Manger had often showed this on demos .
On the demo Zero Boxes there was a inductor , so Mr. Manger _took out_ the
2 MSW on the side , only the front MSW was _on_ . Than the woofers got _out_ .
This was dramatic ! The woofers added only deepness and strenght in the bass
region . No boomy or unprecise bass ! This was critical on most locations .
Jürgen
don`t know what type of Mangers you mean , maybe its the Manger Diskus or so .
That resonance thingie reminds me of the first Generation of Zeroboxes .
As Joachim said earlier they had a crossover region between 100-150 to the
woofers . On most Hifi-Shop locations this was critical to resonances
( room or other speakers in the same room ) , because the woofers + the mangers
are very fast , not boomy or so . Mr. Manger had often showed this on demos .
On the demo Zero Boxes there was a inductor , so Mr. Manger _took out_ the
2 MSW on the side , only the front MSW was _on_ . Than the woofers got _out_ .
This was dramatic ! The woofers added only deepness and strenght in the bass
region . No boomy or unprecise bass ! This was critical on most locations .
Jürgen
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.