Driver and enclosure for 4 watt amp, 12x12 room, moderate volume chamber music?

[zenga123]

It's going to be the FE126En in the new Mk3 design. I will post pictures probably the first week or two of January when they are built. Thank you for all the help in the thread and in personal messages.

 

[chrisb]

sreten:

if I may restate /expand my question from post #23 this thread:

"have you actually heard one of these amps ( Decware Zen) , and if so with any of the types of speakers under discussion herein?"

zenga already has one, and his line of questioning has evolved into seeking recommendations for a system based on this amp, which all theory aside, several of us piping in so far (aside from the designer) are quite aware can deliver quite surprising and very emotionally satisfying music - unless that's not zenga's goal after all

zenga: if you've determined you've got room for the FH3/FE126E combo, I think you'll be happy with the results . my earlier recommendation of the "Castle" is based on personal experience and the lack of negative feedback from my wife in whose living room they reside - she didn't care for the aesthetic of the FH - but that's my cross to bear (what's that honey? -- nothing, just mumbling to myself )

Steve: cheers, congrats on just keeping on trucking - say "howdi" to Devon and Ziggy

 

[zenga123]

That's a fair question to sreten, chrisb. Seems to me that he is using engineer-speak to cover for saying some pretty mean-spirited things about Steve and his work. Maybe if he actually listened to the amp he'd soften up a bit.

Oddly enough, "quite surprising and very emotionally satisfying music" is exactly my goal here. I've had moments like that with the Zen years ago before I put it away, I am expecting more of them with speakers made just for it.

Luckily Ms Sig. O. will put up with some pretty ugly boxes if she can hear details she hasn't heard before coming out of them. (Her ears are better than mine, so sometimes she has to point out the higher range stuff to me.) You should see the big black double-walled bass reflex towers in the living room I built to house the 4 forward facing Audio Nirvana 8"s. And no grill cloth to soften them up.

When she hears me mumbling, she probably thinks "oh-oh, he's cooking up another crazy idea, I hope this one will fit in his study."

 

[sreten]

Hi,

no i've never heard it, but that does not change a simple speaker matching issues.

Pardon me for exploring the simple technicalities, but I'm now going to leave
it alone. It is stated power doubles when bridged into 2,4,8 ohms, but this
implies each channel could drive 1 ohm loads used singly, come on .....


The technical information is poor, not least regarding which output
transformer versions is the best to use / buy for a particular setup.
Bridging information is particular poor, bridging doubles the best
load, i.e. 2,4,8 ohms should change to 4,8,16 ohms.

Proper consistent information is simple, and makes sense.

rgds, sreten.

For those that think I'm being disingenuous here are the "technical details"
of mounting a 1/2" socket set part as a waveguide to a Fostex FE206E,

similar to be above : http://www.decware.com/paper46.htm

 

[zenga123]

sreten, there's no need to use an unrelated picture of sockets that look like Steve's phase guide to express your doubts about his methods. He is now using actual audio tubes for that purpose. Sorry you missed that bit of mad unorthodoxy, I am sure your response would be interesting.

I hope someone equally versed in electrical engineering happens along who can either confirm or refute your problems with the Zen amp. For someone like me who knows close to zilch about this stuff it would be educational.

 

[planet10]

sreten, there's no need to use an unrelated picture of sockets that look like Steve's phase guide to express your doubts about his methods. He is now using actual audio tubes for that purpose.

Everyone who with p10 phase plugs that has also tried the socket prefers the former. The sockets are very difficult to remove once installed. The new plastic plugs are pretty, but a pain to work around. The idea of using a vacuum tube (with all its rattley bits) for anything more that experimental purposes i find a bit daft. The idea to use a vacuum tube was, to the best of my knowledge, 1st hatched by Gregg the Geek or Chris (IIRC) at diyFEST '05 when he installed some in the Korean Sounds of Music alnico OB speakers. Picture evidence. And a comment. It worked, but proper wooden ones were made.

dave

 

[chrisb]

sreten, no one is disputing your technical points or that some of Steve's ideas or prose make for interesting reading, but for me the crux of this thread is that the little amp that zenga already owns and intends on using in this application sounds bigger than "just 2 watts", and having lived with a pair for a few months I can attest that it's far more compliant with a wide range of speaker impedance loads than simple math would imply, and that it's more than likely up to the task of meeting his specified goal

 

[danerius]

The idea of using a vacuum tube (with all its rattley bits) for anything more that experimental purposes i find a bit daft. The idea to use a vacuum tube was, to the best of my knowledge, 1st hatched by Gregg the Geek or Chris (IIRC) at diyFEST '05 when he installed some in the Korean Sounds of Music alnico OB speakers. It worked, but proper wooden ones were made.

dave

I just love that idea. The tubes looks steampunkishly awesome. Havent tried it and probably wont ever do, but the estetic is great. Laughed out loud first time I saw it.

 

[sreten]

sreten, no one is disputing your technical points or that some of Steve's ideas or prose make for interesting reading, but for me the crux of this thread is that the little amp that zenga already owns and intends on using in this application sounds bigger than "just 2 watts", and having lived with a pair for a few months I can attest that it's far more compliant with a wide range of speaker impedance loads than simple math would imply, and that it's more than likely up to the task of meeting his specified goal

Hi,

He already has the amplifier, that is a given, and I'm not attempting to knock
it. What perked my interest is the recommended speaker loading, which is
simply way off what I'd regard as the "normal" case, especially for single
ended amplifiers, never mind it also being a valve SE amplifier to boot.

The technical details IMO being vague and inconsistent make that difficult
to ascertain and you may have gathered I'm not one who goes for hyperbole.
The details for bridged mode are also contrary (to normal) and inconsistent.

I'll not comment on the amplifier further, as I said I want to leave it alone.

But as an example consider splitting the output transformers secondary
winding into 2, wired in series for 8ohm. In parallel they would be 2 ohm
and output power would be ~ identical. This used to be done and load
impedance were either 3 to 4 ohm or 12 to 15 ohm the other wiring.

And FWIW my old Cadet III sounded bigger than just what you'd think
8 Watts would do once you got used to it, until you directly compared
it to something more powerful, their are no "magic" Watts except that
valve Watts go quite a bit louder than tranny Watts due to smoother
clipping characteristics before sounding dreadful, and in my experience
mild valve clipping adds some pizazz to older recordings, e.g. in the
bass it makes the bass easier to follow due to the added harmonics.

rgds, sreten.

Being the sort of guy I am I trust the "right" numbers more than subjective
appraisal. I'd really like to know what is the optimum loading for the amplifier,
and then for all descriptions of the amplifier, this to make consistent sense.
Contrary to what you say, mathematics, if not that simple, always applies.

 

[sreten]

sreten, there's no need to use an unrelated picture of sockets that look like Steve's phase guide to express your doubts about his methods. He is now using actual audio tubes for that purpose. Sorry you missed that bit of mad unorthodoxy, I am sure your response would be interesting.

Hi,

No. The original device was precisely a 1/2" socket from a socket
set, of the correct diameter to match the FE206E's pole piece.
(But not precisely the same shape / type as the one i posted.)
The fantastic device described in the paper was an 1/2" socket.

My gullibility does not extend that far, does yours ?
Or do you need more (unnecessary) examples ?
If so peruse his site for more sensational claims ....

Some may notice that the opening to the hollow cavity in the phase guide is actually square. The interior of the cavity is round. This eliminates the standing waves that would otherwise rest between the two parallel rims and cause problems with everything else.

The pictures have been changed, but not most of the text.
If the above is actually true, then why change it ?

I can live with "I tried it, it sounded the best", what I
cannot live with is the utter tripe written "White Paper".

White Papers should be written by people who have proved
their point, but are now simplifying details for understanding.

rgds, sreten.

 

[zenga123]

sreten, the mechanics of musical reproduction requires the math of an electrical engineer, while the enjoyment of music, at least in my experience, is an almost completely subjective experience. It looks like you have found the perfect place to use your math to beat up on subjectivity.

But since no one is refuting your math about the Zen amp, I have to take what you say into consideration. So in the future when I use the amp, I will listen to the music and not the math. Maybe you could try the amp that way and let us know your subjective experience?

 

[zenga123]

The FE126En is back in stock at Madisound. I just ordered two for the Mk3 project.

 

[sreten]

sreten, the mechanics of musical reproduction requires the math of
an electrical engineer, while the enjoyment of music, at least in my
experience, is an almost completely subjective experience. It looks
like you have found the perfect place to use your math to beat up
on subjectivity.

But since no one is refuting your math about the Zen amp, I have
to take what you say into consideration. So in the future when I
use the amp, I will listen to the music and not the math.
Maybe you could try the amp that way and let us know your
subjective experience?

Hi,

Your missing the point. What you hear is what you hear.

You don't have to believe every claim you read, especially if
it can be compared realistically to other cases and analysed.

I'm not beating up on subjectivity, I don't like technical claims
that when examined are at best vague, or at worst "artifice".

In the worse case subjectively people think by agreeing
with the claim they know something they simply do not.

If you think such matching is subjective, I'm sorry it isn't.
It is simple, and a consequence of the design choices, but
as I've said I'm not going to go into those details further.

My personal opinion is the real facts are not presented straight.
(Like the "development" of the FE206E phase plug/waveguide.)
It won't change your amplifiers actual performance one iota.

I'n not going to suggest you go off and do something to examine
what your saying, IDNM, I know what I know, I'm happy with that.

rgds, sreten.

I've modded lots of turntables for subjective improvements,
all based on sound engineering principles as to what to do.
I simply don't have the test equipment to confirm any of it.
Asked I say well its most likely this, but who really knows.

 

[zenga123]

sreten, are you throwing around latin? IDNM is In Dei Nomine (In the Name of God).

Yeah, I think you are right, I missed your point. You were clear that you are bothered about the claims for the amp, and not how it actually sounds. I am bothered that as I remember, the amp sounded pretty good back when I was using it, and you are now saying the designer is spouting gibberish. Is it just good luck that the amp works at all? I would like to know, and we aren't getting anywhere here. So if you don't mind, I will start a tread on this topic in the amp section, and quote (fairly) some of your comments.

 

[sreten]

Hi,

IDNM I meant "It does not matter", I should have checked that, I didn't.
I'm not saying the designer is spouting gibberish, just that he has a
penchant for overegging the pudding in what he says about stuff.

rgds, sreten.

 

[chrisb]

Hi,

IDNM I meant "It does not matter", I should have checked that, I didn't.
I'm not saying the designer is spouting gibberish, just that he has a
penchant for overegging the pudding in what he says about stuff.

rgds, sreten.

I love the sound of several of his products - some of which are simple enough to inspire diyers to roll their own version, but certainly no argument on your last point.
The guy's been quite successful for over 10 yrs, has a loyal following, has given a lot of folks (myself included) great customer service, and hasn't leaked any government top secrets to the press, so let's let it go .

no, I haven't partaken in the special kool-aid at his or Ed's annual BBQs

cheers