Gainphile posted a thread about a blind listening test comparing the Linkwitz Orion speaker ($9000) to an inexpensive pro speaker and what looks like a very cheap diy speaker. The test was done blind where a black curtain concealed the speakers. Without repeating the post I wanted to let others here know about it in case you don't visit the Multi-way forum...
Link to the test and its results:
http://home.provide.net/~djcarlst/SLReport10.05.pdf
Link to the original post:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/177403-linkwitz-orions-beaten-behringer-what.html
I think many of us already recognize that price doesn't always equal performance. I also believe most of us recognize that we like what we like and convincing us otherwise is futile. And, i do believe full range driver fans LISTEN to their designs because it's the way the music sounds to us that makes us passionate about what we design and build. WE don't get wrapped up in expensive components or complicated wiring. WE keep it simple and listen carefully. I don't think there is one among us that would debate a blind listening test where an inexpensive speaker outperformed an expensive one. We'd just chuckle and go home to enjoy our systems.
Obviously there are a zillion variables but ultimately the reviewers preferred the much cheaper speakers (Actually the cheapie diy speaker came out on top, tho it's an oddball design using Radio Shack wall speakers mounted on four sides of the cabinet.) This is encouraging!
Having bought expensive Morel and Dynaudio components over the years i learned the hard way that spending lots of money doesn't ensure good performance. Keep on listening AND building!
Zilla
Link to the test and its results:
http://home.provide.net/~djcarlst/SLReport10.05.pdf
Link to the original post:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/177403-linkwitz-orions-beaten-behringer-what.html
I think many of us already recognize that price doesn't always equal performance. I also believe most of us recognize that we like what we like and convincing us otherwise is futile. And, i do believe full range driver fans LISTEN to their designs because it's the way the music sounds to us that makes us passionate about what we design and build. WE don't get wrapped up in expensive components or complicated wiring. WE keep it simple and listen carefully. I don't think there is one among us that would debate a blind listening test where an inexpensive speaker outperformed an expensive one. We'd just chuckle and go home to enjoy our systems.
Obviously there are a zillion variables but ultimately the reviewers preferred the much cheaper speakers (Actually the cheapie diy speaker came out on top, tho it's an oddball design using Radio Shack wall speakers mounted on four sides of the cabinet.) This is encouraging!
Having bought expensive Morel and Dynaudio components over the years i learned the hard way that spending lots of money doesn't ensure good performance. Keep on listening AND building!
Zilla
Out of personal experience I have to say that I prefer 8 or 10 op amps in the circuit to a single inductor since it is less damaging to the accuracy as perceived by myself and everybody else who has listened to my speakers before and after I went active with my Tannoy DualConcentrics. And substantially so!
Linkwitz-Riley crossovers.
Phase-coherent crossovers.
The de facto standard for professional audio active crossovers.
Linkwitz-Riley Crossovers: A Primer
Jealousy will get you nowhere.
w
But was only concerened with one very small aspect of the listening experience (ability to imitate the space of a concert hall) and did not address overall quality,
If one takes this to heart then all we can say from this is that every loudspeaker should have drivers on all 4 sides (if a monkey coffin)
People are ignoring the premise and extrapolating the results to the whole performance of the loudspeaker.
dave
>>> But was only concerened with one very small aspect of the listening experience (ability to imitate the space of a concert hall) and did not address overall quality...
True. But since their is a large difference in price among the speakers in the test, plus the 'challenge' itself was put forth by Mr. Linkwitz himself, the results are surprising, fun and intriguing to me.
It would not have surprised me if a FrugalHorn setup optimally (something required by the test) would have enveloped that room with sound, threw a wider soundstage, had pinpoint imaging and performed better than those speakers... then again, given the variables, it may have finished last. Regardless, there will be some percentage of listeners who prefer any one of the others over another. I doubt the judges were not swayed by the overall presentation of the sound produced.
True. But since their is a large difference in price among the speakers in the test, plus the 'challenge' itself was put forth by Mr. Linkwitz himself, the results are surprising, fun and intriguing to me.
It would not have surprised me if a FrugalHorn setup optimally (something required by the test) would have enveloped that room with sound, threw a wider soundstage, had pinpoint imaging and performed better than those speakers... then again, given the variables, it may have finished last. Regardless, there will be some percentage of listeners who prefer any one of the others over another. I doubt the judges were not swayed by the overall presentation of the sound produced.
I've heard the Orions myself at BAF last month. They did everything you would want from a speaker quite well. They can easily serve as a reference. Regardless of what the tests show, they are quite good as loudspeakers.
On the Dark Side of Moon, right before 'Time' and the after the plane takes off, there is a quiet passage where the you can hear the plane in the sky, off at some distance. On the Orions, it sounded freakishly real... like there was really a plane outside flying over us.
On the Dark Side of Moon, right before 'Time' and the after the plane takes off, there is a quiet passage where the you can hear the plane in the sky, off at some distance. On the Orions, it sounded freakishly real... like there was really a plane outside flying over us.
Wow, Linkwitz has nothing on you
you have what designs to offer again? Any websites helping the masses understand audio a little better WITH some data and science to back up your opinion???? I think I will be hearing crickets.....
FWIW, my record against audiophile to believers is 20 - 0 and Thousands of $$$$ betting them in a controlled listening test they could not pick the 'BETTER' peice of electronics. I even would bet on the differences. I know, I know controlled listening is flawed and we would rather have all uncontrolled expectation bias. Lucky the rest of the world do not have audiophiles running something like the FDA, just imagine the discussion.....we do not need controlled tests. Let people just take the drug and make their own conclusions without controlling the variables ...YIKES
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That Eickmeier speakers use DML's right ?
This test was about overcoming the listening
venue and little else ?
A conventional piston acting speaker cannot win
in a "disappearing test" against reasonably well
working DML under "living room like" conditions.
Do not worry about it, the result has little to do with
either SL's design strategy or the Orions.
This test was about overcoming the listening
venue and little else ?
A conventional piston acting speaker cannot win
in a "disappearing test" against reasonably well
working DML under "living room like" conditions.
Do not worry about it, the result has little to do with
either SL's design strategy or the Orions.
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So do all those people also conclude that SL can not design a good speaker??
"Idea devices for audio" is purely subjective.
Electronics is not all that important. Its all about the room and the speakers, get those two right first then maybe fuss over the subjectivity of electronics.
Our blind test where done over 20 years ago when I was at the University of Waterloo. I lived with several engineers who loved nothing better then to take money from audiophiles that had no idea about audio science. Once we remove all the uncontrolled variables from the listening experience things are pretty straight forward. Its amazing what controlled listening tells people. It tells them that their expectation bias is completely out of their control. Its arrogant/ignorant and down right foolish for anyone to really think they have some control over that. The conclusions made are only validated if the listening test is controlled. I do not care how people do it but until they control it their opinion is not worth a lot even if its 40 years of experience...uncontrolled experience is a mountain of nothingness, IMO.
My issue here though is that we have Linkwitz who has contributed more to audio then any one posting in this thread but still some people think he isnt a good speaker designer
If people are going to be so negative and insulting towards him and his designs then by all means show me your designs so we can poke holes inside out of them too....its the only FAIR thing to do really. Its that old saying, do not throw stones at glass houses or something like that
"Idea devices for audio" is purely subjective.
Electronics is not all that important. Its all about the room and the speakers, get those two right first then maybe fuss over the subjectivity of electronics.
Our blind test where done over 20 years ago when I was at the University of Waterloo. I lived with several engineers who loved nothing better then to take money from audiophiles that had no idea about audio science. Once we remove all the uncontrolled variables from the listening experience things are pretty straight forward. Its amazing what controlled listening tells people. It tells them that their expectation bias is completely out of their control. Its arrogant/ignorant and down right foolish for anyone to really think they have some control over that. The conclusions made are only validated if the listening test is controlled. I do not care how people do it but until they control it their opinion is not worth a lot even if its 40 years of experience...uncontrolled experience is a mountain of nothingness, IMO.
My issue here though is that we have Linkwitz who has contributed more to audio then any one posting in this thread but still some people think he isnt a good speaker designer
If people are going to be so negative and insulting towards him and his designs then by all means show me your designs so we can poke holes inside out of them too....its the only FAIR thing to do really. Its that old saying, do not throw stones at glass houses or something like that
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I did not mean to say Mr. Linkwitz was a bad speaker designer rather that even when using expensive components a speaker might not sound as good as other speakers using less expensive components. Also that the room can play a major role and of course, our own personal preferences. It doesn't matter which expensive speaker got beat.
I am always excited to see something well designed, well thought out and well executed. I've looked carefully at the Orion's and believe the people who enjoy them. I believe they are an honest attempt at something really great. Properly setup in the right room i am certain they will perform amazingly well.
Thanks for posting a clearer picture of the IMP speakers.
I am always excited to see something well designed, well thought out and well executed. I've looked carefully at the Orion's and believe the people who enjoy them. I believe they are an honest attempt at something really great. Properly setup in the right room i am certain they will perform amazingly well.
Thanks for posting a clearer picture of the IMP speakers.
Sorry Godzilla, my point was not directed at you.
You raise valid points. You never said anything about him as a designer.
FWIW, The orions are not the sort of design I care for at all but I know they are like very much by others. Everyone has their own applications and requirements so I know there isnt a single design that exists that meets all our different requirements.
I have seen expensive speakers beaten all the time, It just takes the right application. I know my application and requirements will not show any audiophile speaker as the top choice.
You raise valid points. You never said anything about him as a designer.
FWIW, The orions are not the sort of design I care for at all but I know they are like very much by others. Everyone has their own applications and requirements so I know there isnt a single design that exists that meets all our different requirements.
I have seen expensive speakers beaten all the time, It just takes the right application. I know my application and requirements will not show any audiophile speaker as the top choice.
+10
The setup was flawed, very much so ........
My issue here though is that we have Linkwitz who has contributed more to audio then any one posting in this thread but still some people think he isnt a good speaker designer
+ 10
In the pictures from the test i saw something,
which could be a DML (which are often used as
"inwalls") ... but it seems to be more similar to
this kind ?
AUVIO 100W 2-Way In-Wall Speaker : Speakers | RadioShack.com
In the past several years of attending the Burning Amp festival, the Orions were the only speakers that blew me away.
Now to be fair, the festival was not a very good environment for listening. But it is the only time I have had the chance to listen to a variety of DiY designs. And most of them didn't sound as good to me as the Hawthorne Duet open baffles I have at home (which is not to say they weren't as good, just not good enough to overcome my personal bias and the lousy setup).
But the Orions did sound better. Way better. I can't even imagine how good they would sound in my living room, but I intend to find out some day.
Now to be fair, the festival was not a very good environment for listening. But it is the only time I have had the chance to listen to a variety of DiY designs. And most of them didn't sound as good to me as the Hawthorne Duet open baffles I have at home (which is not to say they weren't as good, just not good enough to overcome my personal bias and the lousy setup).
But the Orions did sound better. Way better. I can't even imagine how good they would sound in my living room, but I intend to find out some day.
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