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Old 26th November 2012, 02:44 AM   #891
chrisb is offline chrisb  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tlarwa View Post
Well, the listening room is complete! I have the system in place and the FH3's positioned. They are currently placed about 18" from the corner, and toed in at a 45 degree angle. The speakers are ~8' apart and about 8' from the listening position. The room is 11'6 x 16, with a 7'6 ceiling. I have the acoustical fill in the front chambers (lightly), below the drivers, as well as having the V dampened as suggested. I'm getting plenty of bass, but it's a bit boomy. I'd like to tighten it up. I can remove the tops to adjust the fill if necessary. Any suggestions on room placement and/or fill to help? BTW, they're being driven by a 6W MP-301 Mk2 integrated amp and get plenty loud. Pics of the room to show placement are attached.

Tom


try pulling them out from the corners even further - progressively, 1 couple of inches at a time?
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Old 17th December 2012, 02:39 PM   #892
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Default Frugel Horn Question

Hello every one,
does someone know if the FE108EZ works well in the Frugel "Horn"
I have a couple of those floating around here somewhere.
Trying to understand the concept of it, I'd say it isnt really a Horn, its more like a quater wave type speaker with something close to a horn flare on the other end.
Im wondering if it is able to play loud as a Horn also.
with a small triode amp, I do not have much power to drive it.
I built the Fostex reccomendet Horn and a Nagaoka Swan with that driver,
and those can get pretty loud.
It would be of great help if some one could hint me on that one.
Thanks
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Old 17th December 2012, 05:14 PM   #893
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bassordrums View Post
Hello every one,
does someone know if the FE108EZ works well in the Frugel "Horn"...
Trying to understand the concept of it, I'd say it isnt really a Horn, its more like a quater wave type speaker

Im wondering if it is able to play loud as a Horn also.
with a small triode amp, I do not have much power to drive it.
I built the Fostex reccomendet Horn and a Nagaoka Swan with that driver,
and those can get pretty loud.
FE108eSigma has been used successfully.

FH3 is a tapped horn, and every much a horn as the Fostex or Nagaoka designs -- the Fostex will use far more TL action to get bass. This subject has been discussed before. All horns are 1/4 wavelength devices.

The "loudness" of any back-loaded horn is determined by the midband efficiency of the driver used and has nothing to do with the horn. The horn provides LF gain to extend/enhance bass only.

dave

PS; This is not the appropriate place for this question, i have moved it to the FH3 thread.
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Old 17th December 2012, 05:23 PM   #894
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Quote:
Originally Posted by planet10 View Post
FE108eSigma has been used successfully.

FH3 is a tapped horn, and every much a horn as the Fostex or Nagaoka designs -- the Fostex will use far more TL action to get bass. This subject has been discussed before. All horns are 1/4 wavelength devices.

The "loudness" of any back-loaded horn is determined by the midband efficiency of the driver used and has nothing to do with the horn. The horn provides LF gain to extend/enhance bass only.

dave

PS; This is not the appropriate place for this question, i have moved it to the FH3 thread.
Ok thanks

Well generally we could also say that anything which has a vent like opening is reflex, however Im sure it sounds good, seems like a several people have done that, Im just not sure how loud it gets and the xmax, there is quite a bit of room behind the diaphragm.
The small chamber of the recommended horn is probabby giving quite abit more of resistance to the driver. yes it is probably almost or as loud as in a horn, but because of excessive excursion it Im afraid it could reach X limit or just the point it starts to distort, before it is reaching the same level as in a horn.

Last edited by bassordrums; 17th December 2012 at 05:40 PM. Reason: it moved =)
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Old 17th December 2012, 06:49 PM   #895
chrisb is offline chrisb  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bassordrums View Post
I'd say it isnt really a Horn, its more like a quater wave type speaker with something close to a horn flare on the other end.

that description could well apply to many DIY and even commercial BLH designs

stretch the aspect ratio of a "reflex" box enough into the long dimension and it will develop noticeable 1/4 wave action at low frequencies as well


the 108EZ is a very sweet driver certainly (was even used for a while in a well known commercial BLH design), but even with adequate enclosure loading of our favorite type, may not play very loud with a small triode (how small exactly - 45 territory?)
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Old 17th December 2012, 08:19 PM   #896
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisb View Post
that description could well apply to many DIY and even commercial BLH designs
stretch the aspect ratio of a "reflex" box enough into the long dimension and it will develop noticeable 1/4 wave action at low frequencies as well

the 108EZ is a very sweet driver certainly (was even used for a while in a well known commercial BLH design), but even with adequate enclosure loading of our favorite type, may not play very loud with a small triode (how small exactly - 45 territory?)

yes sure.

I dont want to sound arrogant, still I think I should write the following =)

I wrote 100drets of Akabak scripts, you probably know that software.
I simulated all kinds of enclosures, horns, tml, reflex, bandpasses
soundwall and what ever else there is.

The last ones I did where instrument speakers.
I also build quite a few of all these and its amazing how acurate the simulation is. I measured with a Neutrik A2, I guess you also know what that is.

I started building speakers back in 1985, so I think I can say know quite well how it works I dont know everything but, I used to have a quite good grip on it.

This just to clear positions.
My mother thongue isnt english, so I dont know if Im rude or not I hope not =)

Ok so now the story why I invade this Forum:

I dont actively design Speakers for a while, I play and teach music.

Now a friend which is a very good Jazz saxplayer asked me, to get him something good which is loud enough, it doesent have to be super loud
but he wants to be able to play along with a Tenor sax,
and since I still have 2 of those drivers here, which I think these are pretty good, Im looking for something easy to build which is loud enough and sounds natural. These days you cant find anything in the store which lasts and sounds good.

The amp Im looking at is a small tube amp with 2 EL84 with 8 watts.
Nothing special and it looks crappy but it works and had a good review.

Die boxenladen Website

For the Fostex recommended, Im pretty positive, its enough power because that thing is really loud an it doesent crap out, before that you turn down the volume again.

So Im hoping that this tapped horn does the trick, because the recomended I dont want to build again, to many parts.


Thanks
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Old 17th December 2012, 09:23 PM   #897
chrisb is offline chrisb  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bassordrums View Post
yes sure.

I dont want to sound arrogant, still I think I should write the following =)
you may have failed see below


Quote:

I wrote 100drets of Akabak scripts, you probably know that software.
I simulated all kinds of enclosures, horns, tml, reflex, bandpasses
soundwall and what ever else there is.

The last ones I did where instrument speakers.
I also build quite a few of all these and its amazing how acurate the simulation is. I measured with a Neutrik A2, I guess you also know what that is.

I started building speakers back in 1985, so I think I can say know quite well how it works I dont know everything but, I used to have a quite good grip on it.

This just to clear positions.
My mother thongue isnt english, so I dont know if Im rude or not I hope not =)
your English is far better than any other language that many of us here can use ( i.e. none), and even if your tone is read as rude, or dismissive by others lacking your cirriculum vitae, until personal insults or other forms of mud are slung, I think most of us are grown enough to take it

Quote:

Ok so now the story why I invade this Forum:

I dont actively design Speakers for a while, I play and teach music.

Now a friend which is a very good Jazz saxplayer asked me, to get him something good which is loud enough, it doesent have to be super loud
but he wants to be able to play along with a Tenor sax,
and since I still have 2 of those drivers here, which I think these are pretty good, Im looking for something easy to build which is loud enough and sounds natural. These days you cant find anything in the store which lasts and sounds good.

The amp Im looking at is a small tube amp with 2 EL84 with 8 watts.
Nothing special and it looks crappy but it works and had a good review.

Die boxenladen Website

For the Fostex recommended, Im pretty positive, its enough power because that thing is really loud an it doesent crap out, before that you turn down the volume again.

So Im hoping that this tapped horn does the trick, because the recomended I dont want to build again, to many parts.


Thanks
When you mentioned "small triode" amp earlier, I was thinking in the sub 3 watt range i.e. DHT such as 45 / 2A3 EL84 SE triode connected - all of which I've heard various incarnations of over the past 12yrs or so - can sound glorious, but perhaps underpowered for the described application. In fact several of the above mentioned amps were in systems with Fostex FE series drivers (from FE103ES to FE206ESR) in DIY built "factory recommended" BLH, and other enclosures as well.

Eight watts isn't necessarily "tiny" , particularly in concert with a high sensitivity driver, but I'd be concerned that the dynamics and peak SPLs at which these speakers might be played to keep up with a live sax would overtax the 108's excursion, and while not necessarily damaging it, certainly cause noticeable distress, before amplifier clipping becomes problematic.
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Old 18th December 2012, 01:45 PM   #898
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Thanks =)
I only know the Swan and the recommended which I have at home,
runnung it with a Denon PMA700AE is no problem to keep up with a saxophone it can be even to loud, the concern is mostly the big air area behind the driver, a BLH has a chamber behind the driver and the mouth area is smaller than the SD of the driver, which would give a certain resistance to the driver, if I see that right.
the Frugel Horn does no have that the next narrow point is on the bottom side
before the flare and the air space seems rather big, a simmilar approach to the oncept of a Replikon Horn, big space behind the driver which is tuned so the driver
has a optimal volume to work in, connected to a rather short horn with rapidly opening flare.

The FE108EZ is a rather very short excursion driver so Im affraid it wil over exurse due to the rather large volume behind the driver.
Do I see that right ?

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Old 18th December 2012, 02:24 PM   #899
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Ok, let's do a little error-correcting now, before things get out of hand. The main FH3 thread contains almost all the information you ask about, but it's spread over a wide number of posts. So.

Quote:
A BLH has a chamber behind the driver and the mouth area [I think you mean 'throat' here] is smaller than the SD of the driver.
Not true. That might be what you define as a back horn, but the physics are another matter. A back-horn does not automatically have to possess a low-pass filter chamber. End of story. The throat area is part of the horn (FH3 which is a tapped hypex corner horn has an St = 0, i.e. its throat has almost no physical area, although compression effects mean acoustically it has a small amount), and total efficiency is determined by the expansion profile.

FH3 has no connection to the Replikon. Like most back horns with a chamber, the Replikon is essentially a bass reflex box with a large vent. It's simply a matter of degree. FH3 takes exactly the opposite approach: it has no chamber of any kind, just the horn itself. There is a small choke in the horn expansion near the base; this has no effect on F3, it is merely there to provide a sharper upper corner frequency.

The FE108ESigma has the grand total of 0.28mm of linear travel before reaching advertised Xmax (definition of latter unspecified -there are quite a few), so if you're concerned about remaining within this, then you'll need to forget any attempt to extract LF from it and high pass 2nd order at about 500Hz. There is no enclosure, not even a full-sized horn, which will keep it within 0.28mm deflection while getting < 100Hz out of it.
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Old 18th December 2012, 07:24 PM   #900
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yes I meant the throat. Must be my my way of expression. its really hard to precise write what I mean in technical therms.
If I would simulate the Reco Horn and take the Chamber bigger I get also more exursion.

Of course there are physical limits to the 108EZ, that was not what Im trying to find out, I know how loud it can play I got one here.

I think I need to rephrase =)
Is the 108 in the Frugel able to put out about the same amount of SPL as the Fostex recommended, before distortion, or does the 108 reach its limits significantly earlier than in the Fostex recommended ?
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