I have a favor to ask. I will be moving into an apartment with my girlfriend in August as we finish up our degrees. I am wanting to use it as an excuse to build some new projects, one of them being speakers. I have been going over a few designs but I don't know all that much about speaker designs, so I would really like some input. I am looking for suggestions, opinions, experience, or what ever I can get. I'll lay out some information and some requirements.
I am looking for something that is fairly versatile as far as music genre. At the top of my play-lists: Dave Matthews Band, Jason Mraz, John Mayer, Norah Jones, Diana Krall, Frank Sinatra, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Miles Davis, and I am sure there are a few I am forgetting. However I have been known to pop in just about anything at least once. I may also in the future (near or far) want to use these to watch movies (with or without sub-woofer support).
The living room is where the speakers will be going. The room is 14'6" x 15' with an opening into the kitchen and a large glass slider onto the deck. The TV and stereo will more than likely be along one of the walls, possibly angled a bit into a corner. I am trying to stick to something that is fairly small and unobtrusive. In other words I am trying to avoid large OB's, multi-way horns, large BiB's, and the like. I am also trying to stick to something about $500 or under (there abouts). Unfortunately thanks to college, deposit, and other hobbies, I am on a bit of a budget. I am also looking for a design that is fairly tube-friendly. Something that would be happy 5watts to 10watts of SE or PP tube power. I would love something that would be happy with about 2watts, but I know I can only ask for so much.
This is what I currently have for equipment along with a few soon-to-be additions:
PC Music Source (music ripped uncompressed WAV, played with J.River)
Apple iPod 4th Gen (music as ALAC)
Nelson Pass JFET Bride of Zen
First Watt B1 Line Buffer (breadboard, need to get around to buying the PCB)
Original JLH Class-A Amplifier
Knight KN940 EL84 Integrated Amplifier
Fisher XP6 Speakers (Older?, 3way with Alnico drivers)
CAT5e Interconnects, 12ga Speaker Wire, Basic 14ga Power Cords
Soon
Twisted Pear Audio Opus DAC + USB Receiver Combo (? still comparing DAC's)
12B4A Line Amplifier (have all the parts, I'm just lazy
)
Nelson Pass Zen DeLite Amplifier (need some PSU parts, have everything else)
Tubelab EL34 Simple SE (need iron and pcb)
Speakers (see this thread )
I am just really not sure if I want to take my Fishers for the apartment. Besides, a nice efficient and quality set of speakers has been on my list for a while. I don't know what would really work best with my size of room and desires. After what I have read so far, it would seem that the Planet 10 Fonken is at the top of my list. I don't know if it would be worth it stepping up to the FE167 floor-standing version (if I beg Dave for the plans), or stick with the FE127 version then adding a sub if I feel I really need it. I guess beyond that I am not really sure what other designs I should be looking at, or if the Fonken would be the right direction to look to begin with. I have also looked at Brines Acoustics and some Mark Audio, but I don't know again if they would be a fit.
Sorry for the long thread, but thank you very much in advance for any and all help! More than likely it will be a little while before I would start on these, but I really want to get a design decided upon. Thanks again and happy listening!
I am looking for something that is fairly versatile as far as music genre. At the top of my play-lists: Dave Matthews Band, Jason Mraz, John Mayer, Norah Jones, Diana Krall, Frank Sinatra, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Miles Davis, and I am sure there are a few I am forgetting. However I have been known to pop in just about anything at least once. I may also in the future (near or far) want to use these to watch movies (with or without sub-woofer support).
The living room is where the speakers will be going. The room is 14'6" x 15' with an opening into the kitchen and a large glass slider onto the deck. The TV and stereo will more than likely be along one of the walls, possibly angled a bit into a corner. I am trying to stick to something that is fairly small and unobtrusive. In other words I am trying to avoid large OB's, multi-way horns, large BiB's, and the like. I am also trying to stick to something about $500 or under (there abouts). Unfortunately thanks to college, deposit, and other hobbies, I am on a bit of a budget. I am also looking for a design that is fairly tube-friendly. Something that would be happy 5watts to 10watts of SE or PP tube power. I would love something that would be happy with about 2watts, but I know I can only ask for so much.
This is what I currently have for equipment along with a few soon-to-be additions:
PC Music Source (music ripped uncompressed WAV, played with J.River)
Apple iPod 4th Gen (music as ALAC)
Nelson Pass JFET Bride of Zen
First Watt B1 Line Buffer (breadboard, need to get around to buying the PCB)
Original JLH Class-A Amplifier
Knight KN940 EL84 Integrated Amplifier
Fisher XP6 Speakers (Older?, 3way with Alnico drivers)
CAT5e Interconnects, 12ga Speaker Wire, Basic 14ga Power Cords
Soon
Twisted Pear Audio Opus DAC + USB Receiver Combo (? still comparing DAC's)
12B4A Line Amplifier (have all the parts, I'm just lazy
)Nelson Pass Zen DeLite Amplifier (need some PSU parts, have everything else)
Tubelab EL34 Simple SE (need iron and pcb)
Speakers (see this thread
)I am just really not sure if I want to take my Fishers for the apartment. Besides, a nice efficient and quality set of speakers has been on my list for a while. I don't know what would really work best with my size of room and desires. After what I have read so far, it would seem that the Planet 10 Fonken is at the top of my list. I don't know if it would be worth it stepping up to the FE167 floor-standing version (if I beg Dave for the plans), or stick with the FE127 version then adding a sub if I feel I really need it. I guess beyond that I am not really sure what other designs I should be looking at, or if the Fonken would be the right direction to look to begin with. I have also looked at Brines Acoustics and some Mark Audio, but I don't know again if they would be a fit.
Sorry for the long thread, but thank you very much in advance for any and all help! More than likely it will be a little while before I would start on these, but I really want to get a design decided upon. Thanks again and happy listening!
I am in a similar situation as a soon graduating college student searching for a job. If I live at home for a while, that will basically eliminate any medium to large scale speakers. My budget constraints will probably limit me to building some diy class d amps, and space constraints will definitely be an issue.
Sounds like you have some nice gear at your disposable. I too like a wide span of music ranging from: motown, 80s, class rock, country, etc. I will be following this closely with great interest.
Even with space and budget constraints, I know I won't be able to resist the temptation of making some OBs. On my list are ff85k and alpair 12s for fullrangers, hawthorne 10" psi, or a OB e-wave project
Sounds like you have some nice gear at your disposable. I too like a wide span of music ranging from: motown, 80s, class rock, country, etc. I will be following this closely with great interest.
Even with space and budget constraints, I know I won't be able to resist the temptation of making some OBs. On my list are ff85k and alpair 12s for fullrangers, hawthorne 10" psi, or a OB e-wave project
Dave,
Do you feel the Mark Audio drivers hold advantages over the Fostex drivers? Having not heard either I will have to take others words for it. I have looked at designs like the MarKen10's, Pensil 12's (pushing my size limit I think, and maybe budget), and the MiniOnken. I am sure I could figure something out if it would be worth it to go with an MA based design instead of the FE127's.
Do you feel the Mark Audio drivers hold advantages over the Fostex drivers? Having not heard either I will have to take others words for it. I have looked at designs like the MarKen10's, Pensil 12's (pushing my size limit I think, and maybe budget), and the MiniOnken. I am sure I could figure something out if it would be worth it to go with an MA based design instead of the FE127's.
Dave,
Do you feel the Mark Audio drivers hold advantages over the Fostex drivers? Having not heard either I will have to take others words for it. I have looked at designs like the MarKen10's, Pensil 12's (pushing my size limit I think, and maybe budget), and the MiniOnken. I am sure I could figure something out if it would be worth it to go with an MA based design instead of the FE127's.
Well, I can probably speak to part of the question - after a long and very satisfying relationship with a couple of the recently discontinued Fostex drivers, one of the advantages of the Mark Audio drivers is their availability.
I've built more than a dozen designs from the Planet10/Scottmoose catalog over the past 6 years (multiples of some), until very recently mostly with the FE127E and FE167E - the larger BLH designs generally required for the "6" series Fostex to really shine simply aren't accommodated in my interior design restrictions. After that many years of acclimatization to the tonal and dynamic signature of any family of drivers, it took more than a few minutes to adjust to something as different as the MA's, as well as for the design team to adapt existing enclosures.
So far I've built / listened to probably 1/2 dozen designs for 1st generation Alpair 5 / 6 / 10 CHR & EL70, and will soon have "prime" sized enclosures for the new Alpair 7 ready to fire up.
The sonic qualities of the MA full range drivers have been well discussed elsewhere, and I certainly have my own preference of the drivers / enclosures I've heard to date - your mileage may vary
Having said all that, the Floorstanding FE167 is a very well rounded performer - while it does lack the midrange delicacy / resolution of the 127, and some folks might want a supertweeter above 12K or so. I have 2 pairs of these - one in a simple 2 channel video system, temporarily driven by an old Advent receiver, and the other by any of several tubed amps - 2A3, EL84 P/P and EL34 SE. From your list of current and future equipment, you should have no trouble finding a synergetic match.
So in other words, unless you have access to FE127 or 167's remaining in captivity and want an enclosure design that is well matched to the driver, any of the MA drivers should definitely be on your short list.
There are numerous published enclosure designs posted on Mark's own site, as well as Planet10 and the soon to debut Woden Design ( i.e. Scott Lindgren).
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Mark Audio vrs Fostex is really a matter of compromises choosen.
Up until recently the FonkenPrime has been my personal favorite, around here over & over again, one hears "that's good but it isn't a Fonken". Then came along the primeSize box for the EL70eN (Mar-Kel70). It turned out to be every bit the equal of the FonkenPrime but quite a bit different. Deeper bass, and more of it. More extended on the top. Less forward thru the midrange. Not quite the midrange Majik of the FonkenPrime (althou i have to revisit that, it turns out the EL70 needs even more break-in than the FE127). The EL70 could probably be considered more accurate FR-wise, and certainly is more versatile in terms of all kinds of music & amplifiers.
The price paid is efficiency. Some 3-4 dB less efficient than the FE127, you need, i'd suggest, at least 10 watts. It is, to its benefit, much happier with typical SS amps than the FE127.
Note that all these comments are for drivers that have gone thru my modifcation process. Biased as i may be, i think in terms of price/performance they are better than stock drivers (and given that they cost ~2x as much...)
As Chris alludes, the Alpair7 deciSize miniOnkens are almost done, if the brief flirtation with the A12 on a quick & nasty OB are any indication, and the A7/A12 respond to treatment as well as the other metal cone drivers Mark makes, these should be right up there and could set new standards -- again with the need for more power than the Fostex. (there is also a miniOnken in the works for the A12, but it offers special challenges).
Note that FE167 can still be had from Madisound, and i have a limited number of both here being made into eN versions.
dave
Up until recently the FonkenPrime has been my personal favorite, around here over & over again, one hears "that's good but it isn't a Fonken". Then came along the primeSize box for the EL70eN (Mar-Kel70). It turned out to be every bit the equal of the FonkenPrime but quite a bit different. Deeper bass, and more of it. More extended on the top. Less forward thru the midrange. Not quite the midrange Majik of the FonkenPrime (althou i have to revisit that, it turns out the EL70 needs even more break-in than the FE127). The EL70 could probably be considered more accurate FR-wise, and certainly is more versatile in terms of all kinds of music & amplifiers.
The price paid is efficiency. Some 3-4 dB less efficient than the FE127, you need, i'd suggest, at least 10 watts. It is, to its benefit, much happier with typical SS amps than the FE127.
Note that all these comments are for drivers that have gone thru my modifcation process. Biased as i may be, i think in terms of price/performance they are better than stock drivers (and given that they cost ~2x as much...)
As Chris alludes, the Alpair7 deciSize miniOnkens are almost done, if the brief flirtation with the A12 on a quick & nasty OB are any indication, and the A7/A12 respond to treatment as well as the other metal cone drivers Mark makes, these should be right up there and could set new standards -- again with the need for more power than the Fostex. (there is also a miniOnken in the works for the A12, but it offers special challenges).
Note that FE167 can still be had from Madisound, and i have a limited number of both here being made into eN versions.
dave
Hmmm.... I noticed that it seemed the FE127e was slowly becoming harder to come by. I didn't realize though it was because they discontinued them, bummer! So I guess that opens up some new options to consider. So the EL70eN turned out to be a winner? I am kind of tempted by the prime size box for the Alpair 10 as well. I will have to look into some other boxes to for these drivers, like the Pencils. Searches are in order it would seem.
I am sure I can find a way around the efficiency drop. I have had a PP-1C and a couple other push-pull designs on the ol' "Great Check-List of Projects" for a while now. I am sure a Huey, RLD, or Electra-Print EL84 design would handle them as well. I guess there are a few other SS designs I could visit, just for fun.
I am becoming more and more attracted to the $90 price tag for a pair of EL70's
I am sure I can find a way around the efficiency drop. I have had a PP-1C and a couple other push-pull designs on the ol' "Great Check-List of Projects" for a while now. I am sure a Huey, RLD, or Electra-Print EL84 design would handle them as well. I guess there are a few other SS designs I could visit, just for fun.
I am becoming more and more attracted to the $90 price tag for a pair of EL70's
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Hmmm.... I noticed that it seemed the FE127e was slowly becoming harder to come by. I didn't realize though it was because they discontinued them, bummer! So I guess that opens up some new options to consider. So the EL70eN turned out to be a winner? I am kind of tempted by the prime size box for the Alpair 10 as well. I will have to look into some other boxes to for these drivers, like the Pencils. Searches are in order it would seem.
I am sure I can find a way around the efficiency drop. I have had a PP-1C and a couple other push-pull designs on the ol' "Great Check-List of Projects" for a while now. I am sure a Huey, RLD, or Electra-Print EL84 design would handle them as well. I guess there are a few other SS designs I could visit, just for fun.
I am becoming more and more attracted to the $90 price tag for a pair of EL70's
Not yet having heard the Alpair 7 or CHR70 in the deci-sized enclosure (the last few designs have worked so well that I tend to proceed directly to finish veneering, even on the prototypes, so they're not always the first out of the gate after), the EL70 has been my personal favorite of the MA drivers to date ( in a total of 3 or 4 enclosures)
YMMV of course, but if available in your stable, I'd try them on an 3-5 SE or 10-25w P/P triode amp
Sorry I have been kind of out of it for the past couple days. My uncle was very suddenly hospitalized on Wednesday. He is a police officer and was two days away from retirement. He is doing much better, but he and the family have a long recovery ahead of them.
Veteran Des Moines officer on verge of retirement collapses | Des Moines Register Staff Blogs
I have been searching and reading a bit more about Mark Audio and CSS drivers. They seem to get favorable reviews, and I am thinking I could modify some things a bit to get them to work. I have been looking at a few designs in particular and was wondering if I could get some feedback on them. They would be the EL70 in a Mar-Kel70 enclosure. The MicroTower with a pair of CHR-70's(?). Lastly, maybe the Alpair 10 prime size boxes; though these are pushing the budget a bit, the Alpair 10 seems like a hell of a driver.
I would still like to build a Simple SE, and eventually a Tubelab SE. For now though I have been reading more about some other designs I may be for building that would work a bit better with these speakers. As far as I can tell the JLH should work just fine. I don't really know how the Zen DeLite will handle them, but I guess we will see. I think I may build one of the EL84 designs I mentioned above though. Right now I am leaning towards the Baby Huey. I laid out a parts list for the fixed bias version using Edcor iron and it would come in at about $250 plus the shared power supply, about another $150 give or take. I would be looking at $500 or under for what seems to be a very good amplifier. Otherwise if I could budget $750 I could swing for a PP-1C or Electra-Print EL84 PSA. I will just have to see how things go, school is pricey. I am thinking though that one of these designs coupled with a Baby Huey would be a heck of a system at roughly $800 give or take. I think they would be a heck of a system coupled with my JLH too.
Thanks for any feedback
Veteran Des Moines officer on verge of retirement collapses | Des Moines Register Staff Blogs
I have been searching and reading a bit more about Mark Audio and CSS drivers. They seem to get favorable reviews, and I am thinking I could modify some things a bit to get them to work. I have been looking at a few designs in particular and was wondering if I could get some feedback on them. They would be the EL70 in a Mar-Kel70 enclosure. The MicroTower with a pair of CHR-70's(?). Lastly, maybe the Alpair 10 prime size boxes; though these are pushing the budget a bit, the Alpair 10 seems like a hell of a driver.
I would still like to build a Simple SE, and eventually a Tubelab SE. For now though I have been reading more about some other designs I may be for building that would work a bit better with these speakers. As far as I can tell the JLH should work just fine. I don't really know how the Zen DeLite will handle them, but I guess we will see. I think I may build one of the EL84 designs I mentioned above though. Right now I am leaning towards the Baby Huey. I laid out a parts list for the fixed bias version using Edcor iron and it would come in at about $250 plus the shared power supply, about another $150 give or take. I would be looking at $500 or under for what seems to be a very good amplifier. Otherwise if I could budget $750 I could swing for a PP-1C or Electra-Print EL84 PSA. I will just have to see how things go, school is pricey. I am thinking though that one of these designs coupled with a Baby Huey would be a heck of a system at roughly $800 give or take. I think they would be a heck of a system coupled with my JLH too.
Thanks for any feedback
Sorry I have been kind of out of it for the past couple days. My uncle was very suddenly hospitalized on Wednesday. He is a police officer and was two days away from retirement. He is doing much better, but he and the family have a long recovery ahead of them.
Veteran Des Moines officer on verge of retirement collapses | Des Moines Register Staff Blogs
I have been searching and reading a bit more about Mark Audio and CSS drivers. They seem to get favorable reviews, and I am thinking I could modify some things a bit to get them to work. I have been looking at a few designs in particular and was wondering if I could get some feedback on them. They would be the EL70 in a Mar-Kel70 enclosure. The MicroTower with a pair of CHR-70's(?). Lastly, maybe the Alpair 10 prime size boxes; though these are pushing the budget a bit, the Alpair 10 seems like a hell of a driver.
I would still like to build a Simple SE, and eventually a Tubelab SE. For now though I have been reading more about some other designs I may be for building that would work a bit better with these speakers. As far as I can tell the JLH should work just fine. I don't really know how the Zen DeLite will handle them, but I guess we will see. I think I may build one of the EL84 designs I mentioned above though. Right now I am leaning towards the Baby Huey. I laid out a parts list for the fixed bias version using Edcor iron and it would come in at about $250 plus the shared power supply, about another $150 give or take. I would be looking at $500 or under for what seems to be a very good amplifier. Otherwise if I could budget $750 I could swing for a PP-1C or Electra-Print EL84 PSA. I will just have to see how things go, school is pricey. I am thinking though that one of these designs coupled with a Baby Huey would be a heck of a system at roughly $800 give or take. I think they would be a heck of a system coupled with my JLH too.
Thanks for any feedback
hope your uncle rebounds quickly
Re the audio thing - a few random caffeine and sugar rush (lemon/cherry cheese cake square from the local bistro) induced ruminations:
the fun part about current state of DIY is there so many choices
the tough part is there are too many choices
provided you've got the acumen to not hurt yourself trying, the lure and ultimate enjoyment are worth all the effort
It'd be pretty hard not to build a really decent sounding system for less than the sales tax on some of the high end power cords and interconnects for which some victims of audiophilia nervosa mortgage their kids' inheritance.
I recently stumbled upon yet another statement of the art (of thinning your wallet): High Current Loudspeaker Interface cables, $7,900 for 3meter pair + $2300 per additional meter for custom lengths, interconnects from the same maker $2500 per 1.6meter pair +$700 per additional meter.
no matter how well intentioned and cogent the advice you receive, sometimes you gotta try a taste test for yourself - and when things don't quite work out how you'd hoped, well that's what extended families are for: there's always a cousin or nephew that could use an extra system in a workshop, dorm or party room
sometimes you'll even get a request to "build one for my buddy?"
anyways, back to your regularly scheduled programming
There in lies the problem!
I have done a bit more thinking, reading, conferencing (with my girlfriend), and I think I may build the MicroTowers. They seem easy to build (arguably easier than the Mar-Kel's?), I can fit everything on a 4x8 sheet, and by all accounts they seem to sound good. Of course I have come to this decision a handful of weeks AFTER I passed up a deal on Baltic Birch ply at my local woodworking shop. I believe I will be building them with CHR-70 drivers. By my estimates I can throw a pair of these together for roughly $250, maybe $300 with incidental costs like wire, binding posts, and lost fingers. They should be happy with the JLH, the Zen may though some fits, but they should get along great with a future Baby Huey or PP-1C.
I do have one question though. I am slowly reading more about it, so I may end up answering my own question in a day or so, but how picky are these with room placement? I don't like them as much as the front and rear, but would building the front and top design simplify placement?
HAHAHA, that is great. Back years ago they (the city) decided to tear out overhead power lines all along the railroad tracks by my fathers industrial building. There where miles of the the stuff laying around with the old school glass insulators. They had nothing to do with it so one day we made a significant portion of it "disappear". Maybe it is time for me to go into business selling that stuff for $8,000 per 3 meters. It is defiantly high current, and as a bonus it is "old stock". I could pass it to a buddy and he could dip it in LN2 for me too! Hehe, high-end audio here I come!
Thanks for the kind wishes chrisb, he is doing much better. He actually woke up yesterday, but still has a long way to go.
Certainly compared to the Mar-Kel or any of the mini-onken derived enclosured, the micro towers are a fairly simple build.
I personally found the "Castle" version (second driver top mounted) to be far more versatile in terms of room placement
It bears repeating that unless your amp is happy with very low impedance load, wire them in series. The other option of course would be to biamp.
I personally found the "Castle" version (second driver top mounted) to be far more versatile in terms of room placement
It bears repeating that unless your amp is happy with very low impedance load, wire them in series. The other option of course would be to biamp.
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