Peter Huang> What you're suggesting is exactly what I've been trying to sim the last couple of days. Hornresp is giving me grief...
I might just have to spring for a set of MJK matcad worksheets.
CLS> Basshorns... it could possibly ben an option down the line?
Why dipole?
ctrevith> The only name I've encountered before are Supravox. How would you rate them against Lowthers?
I might just have to spring for a set of MJK matcad worksheets.
CLS> Basshorns... it could possibly ben an option down the line?
Why dipole?
ctrevith> The only name I've encountered before are Supravox. How would you rate them against Lowthers?
Why not?
1. easy to build
2. small footprint
3. excellent sound quality
True horn loaded and dipole are the top 2 methods I know for bass.
I LOVE bass horns, just can not have them at home. So I turned to dipole. No regret.
How can mid-high horn(s) and dipole bass work together? Yes they can, and already been done many many years ago. See WE theater system (and Eurodyn)
BTW, I've been highly intereted in Supravox wide-rangers. I've never had a chance to listen to any of them, but they are that kind of drivers (only a few) that I admire so much just by looking at the pictures.
MarcusG, regarding Supravox vs Lowther, I have not heard the Lowthers but after reading what others have said the impression I get is that they sound very good with vocals, chamber music, etc. but may be hard to tame with other types of music. One thing that would make me shy away from a full range driver that I expected to cover the mid or high bass range would be a driver of limited displacement. Like I said though, I have not personally heard them, let alone in an optimized arrangement.
I've heard Lowthers in quite a few configurations, and feel they're a "different taste for different folks" kind of thing.
The only way I liked them was field coil conversions in 140Hz LeCleac'h front horns, on top of Klipsch corner horns for bass, with super tweeters, and a Siesmic Sub.
But that was sweet, one of the best cone driver systems I've ever heard.
Easy, full, dynamic, open, not harsh, with anything I heard put before it.
And no longer full-range...
I am basically building dipole Lowther sets with Lambda dipole 12's that are basically dipole themselves..
The compromises that going along with this route IMO outweighs every FR solution I have heard to date... all of which is my opinion of course..
The compromises that going along with this route IMO outweighs every FR solution I have heard to date... all of which is my opinion of course..
--the important part which i left out...
everything i stated is only my opinion;
and mine only...
thanks for reminding
rjbond3rd> Hornresp... I don't know what to make of it? There's a gazillion parameters to tweak. The grahs can be very messy to say the least. The supposed combined response is very odd, a 95dB SPL FR driver (Lowther EX2) falling off to 75dB in the kHz range?
It's hard to tell where the horn is actually doing any work? The SPL response for the horn is up in the 105dB area, sometimes even more?
I'm trying to figure it out but it's not easy going.
ctrevith> I haven't heard the Lowthers myslf either and I'm in no way decided.
My only real experience with FR drivers is the Jordan jx92s. I actually like it alot. There's only two things bother me. Low powerhandling = I'm afraid I'm going to blow my speaker at any time listening to music somewhat "loud".
It's like there's a very thin veil across everything. It doesn't sound bad in any way, I'd just like to remove that veil.
The bass is awsome, it truly defies physics.
Supravox looks to be low impedance drivers and I'm planning on using OTL tube amps. -> Higher impedance is better.
It's hard to tell where the horn is actually doing any work? The SPL response for the horn is up in the 105dB area, sometimes even more?
I'm trying to figure it out but it's not easy going.
ctrevith> I haven't heard the Lowthers myslf either and I'm in no way decided.
My only real experience with FR drivers is the Jordan jx92s. I actually like it alot. There's only two things bother me. Low powerhandling = I'm afraid I'm going to blow my speaker at any time listening to music somewhat "loud".
It's like there's a very thin veil across everything. It doesn't sound bad in any way, I'd just like to remove that veil.
The bass is awsome, it truly defies physics.
Supravox looks to be low impedance drivers and I'm planning on using OTL tube amps. -> Higher impedance is better.
Now, I've been looking at the different suggestions.
I never new they were out there, very impressive indeed.
Rullit looks expensive and I couldn't find any data?
PHY-HP looks awsome, too bad I cant afford them. I'd really love to look ito them further but It just ain't happening, too expensive.
Fertin, no graphs found? I wasn't impressed, don't know why?
EMS actually got me thinking. I never thought about building a speaker with a 12" or 15" FR driver? Ok, I would possibly need a tweeter on top but still, it's a very interesting though, especially if they sound good. Too bad the graphs doesn't show response for the LB12 below 200Hz?
I don't know if I'll be able to let this thought go? A 12"...
I never new they were out there, very impressive indeed.
Rullit looks expensive and I couldn't find any data?
PHY-HP looks awsome, too bad I cant afford them. I'd really love to look ito them further but It just ain't happening, too expensive.
Fertin, no graphs found? I wasn't impressed, don't know why?
EMS actually got me thinking. I never thought about building a speaker with a 12" or 15" FR driver? Ok, I would possibly need a tweeter on top but still, it's a very interesting though, especially if they sound good. Too bad the graphs doesn't show response for the LB12 below 200Hz?
I don't know if I'll be able to let this thought go? A 12"...
Sorry for the OT but check out:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/145972-blh-example-hornresp-pictures.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/164781-horn-how-aj-horn-blh-bvr.html
Then maybe start a thread for your project? Sounds interesting to me!
This might be of interest:
6moons audio reviews: A 4-year journey into open baffles with widebanders
6moons audio reviews: A 4-year journey into open baffles with widebanders
Also considering the dissatisfaction with the Jordans.. I thought this was also interesting:
UltraAudio.com Equipment Review - Van Zyl Audio Frontline Loudspeakers (4/2010)
Who knows.. perhaps the floor venting line allows for greater spl's?
UltraAudio.com Equipment Review - Van Zyl Audio Frontline Loudspeakers (4/2010)
Who knows.. perhaps the floor venting line allows for greater spl's?
Defo>How would you describe the TB compared to Lowther? I assume you have some experience?
TB would indeen be a chep way out.
rjbond3rd> Oh, gosh. I'm already in the middle of two other projects. This is just preparing for the future. I like to start the planning way ahead so I can let the thoughts mature.
Finding drivers, deciding on the type of cabinet, start some simulations, ... it takes time and I like to do a good job.
If I could have the Jordans with a tiny tiny bit less veiled sound I'd be decided already.
At this moment in time I'm reading up on how to build a FR speaker without the need for bsc. Cutting 6dB on top is clearly something I'd like to do without.
I'm staring to wonder if it's the driver that's causing all my headaches with hornresp?
ScottG>OB is scary. Please elaborate a little more on your thoughts? The OB is inehrently subject to a weak bass. Why would I want to build a OB FR?
Going for a woofer + Wideband I can understad the reasoning but a true FR seams a little odd?
TB would indeen be a chep way out.
rjbond3rd> Oh, gosh. I'm already in the middle of two other projects. This is just preparing for the future. I like to start the planning way ahead so I can let the thoughts mature.
Finding drivers, deciding on the type of cabinet, start some simulations, ... it takes time and I like to do a good job.
If I could have the Jordans with a tiny tiny bit less veiled sound I'd be decided already.
At this moment in time I'm reading up on how to build a FR speaker without the need for bsc. Cutting 6dB on top is clearly something I'd like to do without.
I'm staring to wonder if it's the driver that's causing all my headaches with hornresp?
ScottG>OB is scary. Please elaborate a little more on your thoughts? The OB is inehrently subject to a weak bass. Why would I want to build a OB FR?
Going for a woofer + Wideband I can understad the reasoning but a true FR seams a little odd?
*Atempting to get the foot out of my mouth*
I errrrhh... made a small oups.
Apparently my memory played a trick on me.
The Jordans are actually good for 50W continous and 100W peak.
I can no longer complain on them not being able to handle the power.
Feeling stupid and embarrassed... (I thought it was 20W/50W)
I errrrhh... made a small oups.
Apparently my memory played a trick on me.
The Jordans are actually good for 50W continous and 100W peak.
I can no longer complain on them not being able to handle the power.
Feeling stupid and embarrassed... (I thought it was 20W/50W)
Less veiled sound may be found in other parts of the system.
I have heard a very "unveiled" sounding system w/ jordan drivers; good analog front end, and large pentode amps I believe.
I can't imagine OB not adding a few layers of veils as well as weak bass.
OB has zero WAF in my house; my wife can hear OB w/o even going in the room, the lack of detail from the back wave bouncing around the room then randomly recombining w/the front wave drives her crazy.
@ RMAF she refuses to even go in OB rooms, just sticks one ear in each door, then says "no, it's those bouncy speakers, i'm staying outside."
but the above mentioned (simple) Jordan system was one her favorites a couple years ago.
Less veiled, and far more dynamic, and detailed are the Lowther field coil conversions in 140Hz LeCleac'h front horns, on top of Klipsch corner horns mentioned previously; but even this configuration is two-way, not full-range.
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It's true what you're saying and the last couple of hours I've started to doubt my own judgement.
Playing around with placement gave me some more air so maybe it's an acoustic issue as much as a hardware issue?
It would be nice to hear more opinions about other jx92s designs. If no-one else are experiencing the "veil" it's probably my system or maybe the cabinets themselves?
Perhaps my best solution would be a redesign of the speakers rather than buying new drivers?
I've been away from the game for a long while. "Lowther field coil conversions" is like greek to me.
Playing around with placement gave me some more air so maybe it's an acoustic issue as much as a hardware issue?
It would be nice to hear more opinions about other jx92s designs. If no-one else are experiencing the "veil" it's probably my system or maybe the cabinets themselves?
Perhaps my best solution would be a redesign of the speakers rather than buying new drivers?
I've been away from the game for a long while. "Lowther field coil conversions" is like greek to me.
I just quickly scanned this thread, and IIRC there was only a quick mention in the original post of the specific enclosure in which your Jordans are installed ( i.e. an ML TWQP).
Not that it matters, but I'll reserve my opinion on this particular driver, as the only two pairs I've had occasion to hear were; 1) probably damaged and operating on a system with compromised chip amp /DAC design 2) part of the group buy that was early production after relocation of manufacturing, and by several reports suspect in terms of consistency to previous samples.
That said, it won't take long to find numerous examples of enclosures "designed for" the JX92, some with reports of "better" overall performance than others (in other words - "experts" be damned, which particular compromises can you detect and accept in your system?), and the driver is well known as being highly resolving and placement / toe-in sensitive.
re Lowther Field Coil conversion:
no doubt there are other links / resources - I'm sure serenechoas could elaborate, but here's one
A little RMAF Lowther p0rn for you single driver OB guys
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