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Old 28th April 2010, 07:42 AM   #71
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Many full range drivers sound excellent at the maximum clean spl they can reproduce. Look at the surface area involved when a percussion instrument resonates due to being hit by drumsticks. It takes a rather large cone area to propogate spl from 25hz to 20khz at high spl's that compare to a live performance. Hearing some single driver designs over the years has steered me away from them and to 3 way designs. One full range driver even in a t-line can't reproduce the volume of sound as a high quality multi driver t-line design.
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Old 28th April 2010, 03:00 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speakerman19422 View Post
Many full range drivers sound excellent at the maximum clean spl they can reproduce. Look at the surface area involved when a percussion instrument resonates due to being hit by drumsticks. It takes a rather large cone area to propogate spl from 25hz to 20khz at high spl's that compare to a live performance. Hearing some single driver designs over the years has steered me away from them and to 3 way designs. One full range driver even in a t-line can't reproduce the volume of sound as a high quality multi driver t-line design.
All of what you say is true, but rather misses the only point that matters to FR afficianado's, especially those of DIY persuasion; it is extremely hard (and often, costly) to create a multi-way speaker that approaches the FR when it comes to accurately reproducing certain types of program material. As I've noted before, my FR's suck at most classic rock, but I have never heard any multi-way speaker do most jazz, chamber music, or "girl with a guitar" type material as well. Not any that I could buy/build for even several times the price of what I have in my FR's, at least.
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Old 28th April 2010, 09:33 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speakerman19422 View Post
Many full range drivers sound excellent at the maximum clean spl they can reproduce.
HUH?!?! The only way I can understand this is if you are referring to volumes below cone breakup issues, which is nowhere near loud with many many FR drivers and nowhere near the thermal or mechanical limits of these drivers.

If not....then...

I don't know how anyone can get away with saying this about FR drivers. If this was the case, FR would be hifi mainstream today. Imagine! ONE driver that covers the full range AND it can be cranked up to near its limits and still remain smooth and articulate!! BTW, if anyone knows of a driver that can do this, TELL me I will buy it. I have not found one yet.
The real story is that popular 'high end' FR drivers have light thin cones to accomplish their task and the side effect of this is poor damping - creating various kinds of breakup distortion above 1khz. This creates a 'harsh' or 'screechy' sound at even modest volumes with many drivers.

My experience with more than a dozen fullrange drivers indicates this common problem: upper midrange breakup which is evident even at levels far less than the driver's thermal or mechanical limit. It's not even power compression or intermodulation distortion territory.

I repeat, if anyone knows of a fullrange driver that 'sounds excellent at its maximum clean SPL' I will buy it. And I will not leave the house for days. Send food.
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Old 28th April 2010, 09:37 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by jrn77478 View Post
As I've noted before, my FR's suck at most classic rock,
That's because the electric guitar has alot of energy in the 'cone breakup' area of FR drivers and the sound is irritating, to say the least. I've also noticed this with saxophone.
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Old 29th April 2010, 12:12 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by speakerman19422 View Post
Many full range drivers sound excellent at the maximum clean spl they can reproduce. Look at the surface area involved when a percussion instrument resonates due to being hit by drumsticks.
I think that is one of the caveats, which if observed, make single driver speakers "listenable."
As long as they are not ask to reproduce complex material, large dynamics or volumes, I still can find single driver systems enjoyable...
I just go in knowing the "maximum clean spl" isn't going to be anywhere near live, natural, or what a horn system can reproduce...
(I keep remembering the field coil feastrex nessies a couple years ago @ RMAF-- beautiful on simple material @ low volume, but broke up @ high volume. Last year, "augmented" w/ woofers, etc, they played metal & symphony loud, but not "big" but all the magic was gone... Bottom thumped like best buy special & top screeched & hurt my ears...

And--
Back to the thread topic--
I'm still wondering why no one has brought up:
  • DIY??? (revision of Beranek's Law; this is a diy forum, no?)
  • Rullit? (nice handmade pieces)
  • or PHY-HP? (nice handmade, semi-production pieces)

And all three WAY out of the Fostex quality zone...
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Old 29th April 2010, 01:14 AM   #76
freddi is offline freddi  United States
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re:sax and FR- some of it might be the recording/mic technique (?) - Alan Parson's "Soundcheck" cd has an unsweetened sax track that can come out pretty well - its on this video at ~0:20 and 1:58 playing through two different fullrange (and probably take headphones to make much out)
YouTube - Karlson/Fostex vs Tangband 1772 BLH vs little Karlson Tangband 1772
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Old 29th April 2010, 02:16 AM   #77
doorman is offline doorman  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serenechaos View Post
I think that is one of the caveats, which if observed, make single driver speakers "listenable."
As long as they are not ask to reproduce complex material, large dynamics or volumes, I still can find single driver systems enjoyable...
I just go in knowing the "maximum clean spl" isn't going to be anywhere near live, natural, or what a horn system can reproduce...
(I keep remembering the field coil feastrex nessies a couple years ago @ RMAF-- beautiful on simple material @ low volume, but broke up @ high volume. Last year, "augmented" w/ woofers, etc, they played metal & symphony loud, but not "big" but all the magic was gone... Bottom thumped like best buy special & top screeched & hurt my ears...

And--
Back to the thread topic--
I'm still wondering why no one has brought up:
  • DIY??? (revision of Beranek's Law; this is a diy forum, no?)
  • Rullit? (nice handmade pieces)
  • or PHY-HP? (nice handmade, semi-production pieces)

And all three WAY out of the Fostex quality zone...
Have you heard the Rullit drivers?
If so, please comment.
Don
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Old 29th April 2010, 03:02 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by markusG View Post
I'm very happy with my current ml tqwt's but I can't play really loud due to obvious power limits.

Maybe there's a new speaker project in the near future?
So, I'm toying with the idea of using a full range driver down to somewhere in the bass range and a big woofer for the bass.
My 2cent answer is:
Lowther drivers
+back loaded Horn
+Subwoofer

I am sorry that my answer might bring more difficult questions.
What is/How to make/Where to find the subwoofer system which could well match with the Lowther horns???
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Old 29th April 2010, 03:35 AM   #79
CLS is offline CLS  Taiwan
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How about another pair of bigger badder bass horns?

Or dipole !

Last edited by CLS; 29th April 2010 at 03:53 AM.
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Old 29th April 2010, 05:47 AM   #80
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Default How about our French brethren?

- Supravox
- Fertin
- Emspeaker

I heard the Supravox 215-2000 EXC (fieldcoil) at the home of the US distributor a year ago or so. They were installed in some very large rear vented horn enclosures driven by Wyetech Topaz amps with an esoteric Euro tube preamp (can't recall the name). There was some analog tube based EQ in the loop as well. Very disarming, immersive and palpable. Worked with analog and digital sources, jazz, rock, blues, gospel, you name it. Great impact low and high, didn't feel like anything was missing but have to admit I did not listen to any hip hop. I have not heard them but know others that have the Fertin 20ex and Emspeaker LB12 and they say these are very good as well. I'm thinking about doing an MLTL LB12EX at the moment. That or an MLTL GPA604 but that's a bit off topic.
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