Well, yes the Jordan drivers are nice.
However there's something that I can't really place finger on that keeps bothering me?
I think MJK is onto something when he described the Lowthers as a "veil was lifted" compared to other drivers. I think that's the sort of thing I'm looking for.
The Jx92s has it all and is a very easy driver to listen to. Very musical and not harsh in any way. Still there's something...
So, I really like them but that won't stop me from searching for an upgrade.
Building a new cabinet for the Jordans is one option but not the only option.
What I like so far about the Lowthers.
- High efficiency with SPL +95dB.
- High power rating, 100W
- Available in a high impedance (15ohm) version
- The description of the sound as I've read it.
Since I plan on getting busy with building some tube amps in the near future it's nice to plan ahead. The Lowthers sound like a match made in heaven.
The Cons...
- High free air resonance @ 50 some Hz.
- They loose a little (frequency response graph) as the frequency drops, i.e. not fully linear. This is me really being picky.
- Expensive
Otoh building a full range speker we only need one driver, we can afford to make that one driver a good one.
However there's something that I can't really place finger on that keeps bothering me?
I think MJK is onto something when he described the Lowthers as a "veil was lifted" compared to other drivers. I think that's the sort of thing I'm looking for.
The Jx92s has it all and is a very easy driver to listen to. Very musical and not harsh in any way. Still there's something...
So, I really like them but that won't stop me from searching for an upgrade.
Building a new cabinet for the Jordans is one option but not the only option.
What I like so far about the Lowthers.
- High efficiency with SPL +95dB.
- High power rating, 100W
- Available in a high impedance (15ohm) version
- The description of the sound as I've read it.
Since I plan on getting busy with building some tube amps in the near future it's nice to plan ahead. The Lowthers sound like a match made in heaven.
The Cons...
- High free air resonance @ 50 some Hz.
- They loose a little (frequency response graph) as the frequency drops, i.e. not fully linear. This is me really being picky.
- Expensive
Otoh building a full range speker we only need one driver, we can afford to make that one driver a good one.
just my two cents
Surprisingly, in all this thread nobody talked about SEAS so here I go.....
I am running SEAS F8 in an OB design, comparing them to Fostex FE108Sigma and one of the oldest fullrange speakers on the planet, a pair of Quad ESL63. And by the sound of it (literally!), the F8 sounds more "open", with a lot more low-level details and resolution than the FE108. It comes close to the ESL63 in terms of soundstage and panoramic resolution, but does not have the same bass (how could it, given much smaller dimensions - yes I will be adding a woofer hopefully soon!)
In comparison, the ESL63 is less "involving" - everything is there, more so than with the F8, but it is less lively, animated.....
(really difficult to find the words!)
In conclusion, I find that the F8 and the ESL63 are much closer in sound quality then I expected!
Surprisingly, in all this thread nobody talked about SEAS so here I go.....
I am running SEAS F8 in an OB design, comparing them to Fostex FE108Sigma and one of the oldest fullrange speakers on the planet, a pair of Quad ESL63. And by the sound of it (literally!), the F8 sounds more "open", with a lot more low-level details and resolution than the FE108. It comes close to the ESL63 in terms of soundstage and panoramic resolution, but does not have the same bass (how could it, given much smaller dimensions - yes I will be adding a woofer hopefully soon!)
In comparison, the ESL63 is less "involving" - everything is there, more so than with the F8, but it is less lively, animated.....
(really difficult to find the words!)
In conclusion, I find that the F8 and the ESL63 are much closer in sound quality then I expected!
>>> The full-range drivers were straining and rather colored, though the Lowthers sounded more neutral. It was like viewing a slightly abstract painting when I wanted to see a photograph of the landscape. I did not hear anything that would have given me an incentive to investigate such drivers or to re-evaluate what I am doing. I was quite surprised to learn the retail prices of around $48,000 for the Feastrex pair and $4,400 for the Lowther pair...."
>>> So my view is: we all have different ears, even amongst the so called "guru" themselves. Someone getting a phd in newtonian physics or E.E. does not automatically own simiarly accurate hearing ability.
Yes, Welborne, i remember Linkwitz did not seem to love the lowthers or feastrex on OB. We all like to DIY and we all enjoy the search for better sound. As good as Linkwitz speakers may be i have seen them criticized for lack of liveliness and needing high quality amplification. But as the designer, he is proud of his offering. We all look for positive reinforcement on the things we do.
>>> I did not hear anything that would have given me an incentive to investigate such drivers or to re-evaluate what I am doing.
And i believe him. Since i DIY and enjoy the search for different types of sound reproduction, i am glad i do not have to say or think anything like the statement above. I'm certain there are many who would prefer speakers over the lowther, feastrex or Linkwitz designs and there will be many who prefer drivers over the jordan's. This discussion makes me want to get out there and listen to everything available so i can form my own conclusions. Influential speaker designers that frequent this forum try so many different cabinets and drivers that offer US many GREAT options, none of which could be considered better or worse than something else. I remember many years ago thinking how it would be possible to design the 'best' speaker. Over those years i found there are MANY bests and they are all enjoyable and worthwhile. In DIY we get to choose the best then change our mind and choose another best. In the meantime i will enjoy what i have and let the music move me on that system until i decide to build something else that may or may not be better... but i hope it's enjoyable.
When manufacturers like lowther and feastrex build something where cost is not an issue, it becomes a matter of taste, as Welborne said. These cost no object manufactures may be out of their minds to charge what they do but i give them credit for pursuing their goals to make something special. Of course not everyone has to like them.
>>> So my view is: we all have different ears, even amongst the so called "guru" themselves. Someone getting a phd in newtonian physics or E.E. does not automatically own simiarly accurate hearing ability.
Yes, Welborne, i remember Linkwitz did not seem to love the lowthers or feastrex on OB. We all like to DIY and we all enjoy the search for better sound. As good as Linkwitz speakers may be i have seen them criticized for lack of liveliness and needing high quality amplification. But as the designer, he is proud of his offering. We all look for positive reinforcement on the things we do.
>>> I did not hear anything that would have given me an incentive to investigate such drivers or to re-evaluate what I am doing.
And i believe him. Since i DIY and enjoy the search for different types of sound reproduction, i am glad i do not have to say or think anything like the statement above. I'm certain there are many who would prefer speakers over the lowther, feastrex or Linkwitz designs and there will be many who prefer drivers over the jordan's. This discussion makes me want to get out there and listen to everything available so i can form my own conclusions. Influential speaker designers that frequent this forum try so many different cabinets and drivers that offer US many GREAT options, none of which could be considered better or worse than something else. I remember many years ago thinking how it would be possible to design the 'best' speaker. Over those years i found there are MANY bests and they are all enjoyable and worthwhile. In DIY we get to choose the best then change our mind and choose another best. In the meantime i will enjoy what i have and let the music move me on that system until i decide to build something else that may or may not be better... but i hope it's enjoyable.
When manufacturers like lowther and feastrex build something where cost is not an issue, it becomes a matter of taste, as Welborne said. These cost no object manufactures may be out of their minds to charge what they do but i give them credit for pursuing their goals to make something special. Of course not everyone has to like them.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/164797-200-x-2-drivers-what-do-8.html#post2160121
presumably more involving than ESL63 and at the same time technically better in most respects (nonlinear distortions, stored energy, transient response, power compression and so on and so on and so on) than anything mentioned earlier in this thread
best,
graaf
I think this is the beauty and magic of audio.. and why there isn't an all inclusive solution to everybody.. and how I constantly laugh at all the magazine adds that claim the "worlds best loudspeaker"..
What grabs my attention emotionally may not with you.. but at the same time.. there are certain elements that if they are wrong then it's wrong..
I will say, my personal revelation with "wideband" I don't call them "fullrange" as I have yet to experience any driver that plays 20 to 20 perfectly in any solution. But after hearing the Lowthers OB and then dipole, it was an awakening, as I have never heard something that repeatedly gave me goosebumps.. And I will never use a wideband driver any other way as I have heard horn loaded widebands and hated them..
What grabs my attention emotionally may not with you.. but at the same time.. there are certain elements that if they are wrong then it's wrong..
I will say, my personal revelation with "wideband" I don't call them "fullrange" as I have yet to experience any driver that plays 20 to 20 perfectly in any solution. But after hearing the Lowthers OB and then dipole, it was an awakening, as I have never heard something that repeatedly gave me goosebumps.. And I will never use a wideband driver any other way as I have heard horn loaded widebands and hated them..
I think the SEAS are quite excellent and particularly neutral,
but they are not as popular as you might expect, possibly
because they don't fit the usual expectations for full range
speakers.
SL was commenting on a hastily thrown together demo at
BAF, where nothing was optimized and different bizarro
amplifiers were used. I wouldn't place too much emphasis
on the result.
Hi Nelson, thanks for your comments - what would you say are the "usual" expectations for fullrange drivers? I must admit that for something thrown together relatively quick (my Seas OB speakers, that is) and rather short burn-in (a few hours) the result was spectacular, at least to my ears.
(might be due to the F5 as well ;-))
(might be due to the F5 as well ;-))
The "usual" suspects fall into two basic categories:
At the lower price range you have Fostex and Audio Nirvana,
which are not identical but have a "family" sound.
At the higher prices, you have the Lowthers, AERs and
Feastrex which form a different family.
Just my offhand opinion of course -
Many full range drivers sound excellent at the maximum clean spl they can reproduce. Look at the surface area involved when a percussion instrument resonates due to being hit by drumsticks. It takes a rather large cone area to propogate spl from 25hz to 20khz at high spl's that compare to a live performance. Hearing some single driver designs over the years has steered me away from them and to 3 way designs. One full range driver even in a t-line can't reproduce the volume of sound as a high quality multi driver t-line design.
All of what you say is true, but rather misses the only point that matters to FR afficianado's, especially those of DIY persuasion; it is extremely hard (and often, costly) to create a multi-way speaker that approaches the FR when it comes to accurately reproducing certain types of program material. As I've noted before, my FR's suck at most classic rock, but I have never heard any multi-way speaker do most jazz, chamber music, or "girl with a guitar" type material as well. Not any that I could buy/build for even several times the price of what I have in my FR's, at least.
HUH?!?! The only way I can understand this is if you are referring to volumes below cone breakup issues, which is nowhere near loud with many many FR drivers and nowhere near the thermal or mechanical limits of these drivers.
If not....then...
I don't know how anyone can get away with saying this about FR drivers. If this was the case, FR would be hifi mainstream today. Imagine! ONE driver that covers the full range AND it can be cranked up to near its limits and still remain smooth and articulate!! BTW, if anyone knows of a driver that can do this, TELL me I will buy it. I have not found one yet.
The real story is that popular 'high end' FR drivers have light thin cones to accomplish their task and the side effect of this is poor damping - creating various kinds of breakup distortion above 1khz. This creates a 'harsh' or 'screechy' sound at even modest volumes with many drivers.
My experience with more than a dozen fullrange drivers indicates this common problem: upper midrange breakup which is evident even at levels far less than the driver's thermal or mechanical limit. It's not even power compression or intermodulation distortion territory.
I repeat, if anyone knows of a fullrange driver that 'sounds excellent at its maximum clean SPL' I will buy it. And I will not leave the house for days. Send food.
That's because the electric guitar has alot of energy in the 'cone breakup' area of FR drivers and the sound is irritating, to say the least. I've also noticed this with saxophone.
I think that is one of the caveats, which if observed, make single driver speakers "listenable."
As long as they are not ask to reproduce complex material, large dynamics or volumes, I still can find single driver systems enjoyable...
I just go in knowing the "maximum clean spl" isn't going to be anywhere near live, natural, or what a horn system can reproduce...
(I keep remembering the field coil feastrex nessies a couple years ago @ RMAF-- beautiful on simple material @ low volume, but broke up @ high volume. Last year, "augmented" w/ woofers, etc, they played metal & symphony loud, but not "big" but all the magic was gone... Bottom thumped like best buy special & top screeched & hurt my ears...
And--
Back to the thread topic--
I'm still wondering why no one has brought up:
- DIY??? (revision of Beranek's Law; this is a diy forum, no?)
- Rullit? (nice handmade pieces)
- or PHY-HP? (nice handmade, semi-production pieces)
And all three WAY out of the Fostex quality zone...
re:sax and FR- some of it might be the recording/mic technique (?) - Alan Parson's "Soundcheck" cd has an unsweetened sax track that can come out pretty well - its on this video at ~0:20 and 1:58 playing through two different fullrange (and probably take headphones to make much out)
YouTube - Karlson/Fostex vs Tangband 1772 BLH vs little Karlson Tangband 1772
YouTube - Karlson/Fostex vs Tangband 1772 BLH vs little Karlson Tangband 1772
My 2cent answer is:
Lowther drivers
+back loaded Horn
+Subwoofer
I am sorry that my answer might bring more difficult questions.
What is/How to make/Where to find the subwoofer system which could well match with the Lowther horns???
How about our French brethren?
- Supravox
- Fertin
- Emspeaker
I heard the Supravox 215-2000 EXC (fieldcoil) at the home of the US distributor a year ago or so. They were installed in some very large rear vented horn enclosures driven by Wyetech Topaz amps with an esoteric Euro tube preamp (can't recall the name). There was some analog tube based EQ in the loop as well. Very disarming, immersive and palpable. Worked with analog and digital sources, jazz, rock, blues, gospel, you name it. Great impact low and high, didn't feel like anything was missing but have to admit I did not listen to any hip hop. I have not heard them but know others that have the Fertin 20ex and Emspeaker LB12 and they say these are very good as well. I'm thinking about doing an MLTL LB12EX at the moment. That or an MLTL GPA604 but that's a bit off topic.
- Supravox
- Fertin
- Emspeaker
I heard the Supravox 215-2000 EXC (fieldcoil) at the home of the US distributor a year ago or so. They were installed in some very large rear vented horn enclosures driven by Wyetech Topaz amps with an esoteric Euro tube preamp (can't recall the name). There was some analog tube based EQ in the loop as well. Very disarming, immersive and palpable. Worked with analog and digital sources, jazz, rock, blues, gospel, you name it. Great impact low and high, didn't feel like anything was missing but have to admit I did not listen to any hip hop. I have not heard them but know others that have the Fertin 20ex and Emspeaker LB12 and they say these are very good as well. I'm thinking about doing an MLTL LB12EX at the moment. That or an MLTL GPA604 but that's a bit off topic.
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