Best full range driver?

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Gentlemen -get out from under the blanket of this post-feminist (or whatever the heck they're calling it this week) society. Chuck your hair-products in the bin, where they belong, burn the skin-care products & tooth-whitening kits before you end up looking like a US news-anchorman, get out there, buy yourself a Triumph TR6, a train-set, and enjoy your bloody stereo. You're a man. It's not a crime.

Hooray!! I read another thread on this site recently where a guy wanted to make a table radio for the kitchen but was blocked by the wife. He says he had to make it not above a certain size and had to make it 'look old' to fit the antique decor or some such nonsense. You can guess who's in charge in that house. I can't stand it.
 
Although this gentleman said he " have had the chance to live with a few of the models for months". The fact being he shared a listening room with another person who owned feastrex, that is. This gentleman did not have the right to listen to feastrex and the related set up, when the owner was not there, or without the owner's prior permission.
I think I have the right to say this, as I am the owner of two 5 inches models D5nf and D5 of Feastrex when I was sharing a 200 sq. feet listening room with him 2 years ago.
Unless this gentleman can imagine the sound by looking at the speaker, his audition experience with Feastrex is extremely limited. To my memory he had driven D5nf with TA2024 T-amp and a 0.7W single stage 71A tube amp during a time when I borrowed a pair of D5nf to him for two weeks. That was a 36 sq. feet listening room. Listening distance is 3 feet from the speakers to the ears. This is the most extensive listening experience he had with Feastrex, if he had driven them continuously for two weeks, not to mention if it is fairly treated by the gears and the listening place.

On the contrast this gentleman collected a number of vintage German speakers( unfortunately due to a prolonged partial mentoring from me -- of which I regret a lot), at a regardless condition but comparable dollar value or more than the Feastrex 5 inchers. So I am confused when he talked on value against performance.

I am not trying to start a fight here. I even seldom visit this site. But a friend told me someone is writing something deviating from fact , either intentionally or unintentionally. Since this gentleman has been relentlessly attacking Feastrex in a number of Chinese forums, I unfortunately has to write what I believe to be the actual story.

Hi FR338,
Welborn (along with other HK DIYers) have spent time with my drivers recently. From the auditions, they've expresses their views on Markaudio drivers in various forums, some of which I wouldn't agree with, but I readily accept their right to express opinions.

Its very poor to see that you've attacked the personal standing of Welborn rather than staying with technical issues. There is a Feastrex section in the commercial part of this forum where your interests in Feastrex could be better served.

More important. If I understand correctly, you have (or did have) a financial or retail interest in Feastrex. If this is the case, please clearly declare your commercial interest in Feastrex in any future posts.

Regarding the publication of driver performance data, I urge all makers, big or small to publish the following using industry standard equipment (LMS, CLIO, Praxis, MLSSA etc etc):
1 - T/S data sets
2 - Frequency graph (RAW is desirable)
3 - Impedance graph

No doubt I will upset some in the industry. Sorry to be blunt but it's high time parts of the speaker industry cleaned house. Agreed, testing methods and the generated data isn't a perfect solution; But it gives DIYer's a reasonable opportunity to assess drivers for project suitability and to help progress their design work.

Cheers,

Mark.
 
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Hi FR338,

No doubt I will upset some in the industry. Sorry to be blunt but it's high time parts of the speaker industry cleaned house. Agreed, testing methods and the generated data isn't a perfect solution; But it gives DIYer's a reasonable opportunity to assess drivers for project suitability and to help progress their design work.

Humm.. Let me do some minor clarifications...Firstly, I'm the Feastrex dealer for Singapore.. :) No I'm not upset.. :) Yes, I understand the need for data graphs etc.. but for now I just want to highlight that the cabinet design provided by Feastrex works very well ie a well proven design.

I have been trying different variations and improvements to the same box design.. rectangular ports to round ports, additional solid bar bracing to rectangular bracing, increasing plywood thickness from 18mm to 25mm and additional bituman damping .. etc and the improvements are well worth the effort.

My point is .... the correct box design has been given, one just needs to spend more time and effort into building a better cabinet and you are done... it's just that simple..... :)
 
Humm.. Let me do some minor clarifications...Firstly, I'm the Feastrex dealer for Singapore.. :) No I'm not upset.. :) Yes, I understand the need for data graphs etc.. but for now I just want to highlight that the cabinet design provided by Feastrex works very well ie a well proven design. I have been trying different variations and improvements to the same box design.. rectangular ports to round ports, additional solid bar bracing to rectangular bracing, increasing plywood thickness from 18mm to 25mm and additional bituman damping .. etc and the improvements are well worth the effort.
My point is .... the correct box design has been given, one just needs to spend more time and effort into building a better cabinet and you are done... it's just that simple..... :)

Hi BTW,
Glad you've declared your commercial interest. I take your points about experimentation. Indeed, its a necessary and pleasurable part of the hobby.

I'm wouldn't agree with you about the "correct" box design statement. Its very difficult to establish the validity of an optimised design when driver data is not available.

There will never be a box design or any driver type that could be considered "correct". However, its good for hobbyists to try and reach goal where their projects satisfy them. In doing so, the results are often technically excellent.

I believe its important for the future credibility of the whole speaker industry to offer a reasonable range of technical information on their products. I'm not out to knock Feastrex or any other maker in a similar position. However, I am trying to encourage all makers to support a "level playing field" over the issue of data publication.

Cheers

Mark.
 
You didn't address the DIY aspect of raw driver sales, BTW. Any speaker driver sold without a cabinet is assumed to be used 'DIY', right? And even if Feastrex is sold for use with factory developed cabinet designs only, many will try them in just about anything they can dream up. I know I would:D.
A complete spec sheet has to be included to show us what we are buying and how it may behave in various configurations. Sure, some will build and use the recommended cabinets, but many will not. I for one use a low-Q driver in OB with other woofers; a 'far cry' from the intended use of that design.
A few people will buy a sports car because 'it's fast'. But most of us want to know alot more before dropping 70 Gs.
 
Hi FR338,
Welborn (along with other HK DIYers) have spent time with my drivers recently. From the auditions, they've expresses their views on Markaudio drivers in various forums, some of which I wouldn't agree with, but I readily accept their right to express opinions.

Its very poor to see that you've attacked the personal standing of Welborn rather than staying with technical issues. There is a Feastrex section in the commercial part of this forum where your interests in Feastrex could be better served.

More important. If I understand correctly, you have (or did have) a financial or retail interest in Feastrex. If this is the case, please clearly declare your commercial interest in Feastrex in any future posts.

Regarding the publication of driver performance data, I urge all makers, big or small to publish the following using industry standard equipment (LMS, CLIO, Praxis, MLSSA etc etc):
1 - T/S data sets
2 - Frequency graph (RAW is desirable)
3 - Impedance graph

No doubt I will upset some in the industry. Sorry to be blunt but it's high time parts of the speaker industry cleaned house. Agreed, testing methods and the generated data isn't a perfect solution; But it gives DIYer's a reasonable opportunity to assess drivers for project suitability and to help progress their design work.

Cheers,

Mark.

I think my points was not fully read. No matter I am a dealer, a designer or a father and no matter it is "feastrex", "lowther" or "AER", I was addressing :

1. Someone who I personally know have limited experience with a speaker and posted his elaborated judgement.

2. Someone who I personally know talked on price to performance, while his actual behavior is against this.


My stand point is very clear about internet forums. People come here to look for contributive discussions or possibly some answers. What is the point of continuing the subscription if it is full of irresponsible sayings.

I hope this completed what I was trying to write.
 
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Hi BTW,
Glad you've declared your commercial interest. I take your points about experimentation. Indeed, its a necessary and pleasurable part of the hobby.

I'm wouldn't agree with you about the "correct" box design statement. Its very difficult to establish the validity of an optimised design when driver data is not available.

There will never be a box design or any driver type that could be considered "correct". However, its good for hobbyists to try and reach goal where their projects satisfy them. In doing so, the results are often technically excellent.

I believe its important for the future credibility of the whole speaker industry to offer a reasonable range of technical information on their products. I'm not out to knock Feastrex or any other maker in a similar position. However, I am trying to encourage all makers to support a "level playing field" over the issue of data publication.

Cheers

Mark.

Hi Mark,

Thanks for your reply.... If the word "Correct" is too strong for you... I can always accept "Working or OK" cabinet no problems at all..... :D

I fully understand the need for datas etc... but it's out of my hands it's fully up to Feastrex Japan to do so..

I only responded as I felt there was a need to highlight and clarify that the design for cabinets that "work" are available..

Cheers

William
 
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You didn't address the DIY aspect of raw driver sales, BTW. Any speaker driver sold without a cabinet is assumed to be used 'DIY', right? And even if Feastrex is sold for use with factory developed cabinet designs only, many will try them in just about anything they can dream up. I know I would:D.
A complete spec sheet has to be included to show us what we are buying and how it may behave in various configurations. Sure, some will build and use the recommended cabinets, but many will not. I for one use a low-Q driver in OB with other woofers; a 'far cry' from the intended use of that design.
A few people will buy a sports car because 'it's fast'. But most of us want to know alot more before dropping 70 Gs.


I fully understand what you are getting at.. but as in my reply above to Mark, it's up to Feastrex Japan to do so.

However, want I really want to say again and applies to all Fullrangers as well is.... Once you have a good and sound cabinet design... please take all the time and effort to maximise.... the cabinet structure , bracing, damping, spiking etc.. The difference and improvements will be huge with proper effort.
 
No matter I am a dealer, a designer or a father and no matter it is "feastrex", "lowther" or "AER", I was addressing :
1. Someone who I personally know have limited experience will a speaker and posted his elaborated judgement.

2. Someone who I personally know talked on price to performance, while his actual behavior is against this.

My stand point is very clear about internet forums. People come here to look for contributive discussions or possibly some answers. What is the point of continuing the subscription if it is full of irresponsible sayings.
I hope this completed what I was trying to write.

Hi FR338,
OK, now we've established that you have a commercial interest in Feastrex , its up to other forum members to make a judgement call on the neutrality of your comments and opinions.

I understand your frustration. There are times when I feel the same; But as members with commercial interests, we have to self-moderate and act with some restraint. We may not like some of the comments on forums, but we must still respect the rights of ordinary members to say what they think and feel.

You need to act with greater restraint and stay with technical and related issues, rather than continuing to attack a member's personal standing. Frankly speaking, your behaviour so far, is not in keeping with the good nature and "spirit" of this forum.

Mark.
 
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Hi Mark,
Thanks for your reply.... If the word "Correct" is too strong for you... I can always accept "Working or OK" cabinet no problems at all..... :D
I fully understand the need for datas etc... but it's out of my hands it's fully up to Feastrex Japan to do so..
I only responded as I felt there was a need to highlight and clarify that the design for cabinets that "work" are available..
Cheers
William

Hi William,
Good to hear from you. Hope life in Singapore is good.

I think its just a matter of wording. "Correct" is a strong term. As an engineer (Mech. Eng) I'm sometimes guilty of using the term "correct" too much on occasion. The main thing is for members to have the opportunity to appreciate the nature and meaning of our comments.

Hope to meet you sometime when I next visit Singapore.

Cheers

Mark.
 
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Hi William,
Good to hear from you. Hope life in Singapore is good.

I think its just a matter of wording. "Correct" is a strong term. As an engineer (Mech. Eng) I'm sometimes guilty of using the term "correct" too much on occasion. The main thing is for members to have the opportunity to appreciate the nature and meaning of our comments.

Hope to meet you sometime when I next visit Singapore.

Cheers

Mark.

Sure, drop me a line if you are in Singapore... Btw my background is M.E. too.....:)
 
Hi FR338,
OK, now we've established that you have a commercial interest in Feastrex , its up to other forum members to make a judgement call on the neutrality of your comments and opinions.

I understand your frustration. There are times when I feel the same; But as members with commercial interests, we have to self-moderate and act with some restraint. We may not like some of the comments on forums, but we must still respect the rights of ordinary members to say what they think and feel.

You need to act with greater restraint and stay with technical and related issues, rather than continuing to attack a member's personal standing. Frankly speaking, your behaviour so far, is not in keeping with the good nature and "spirit" of this forum.

Mark.

1. So far I am quoting my own history. If this is classified as personal attack then it is.

2. If my temporary misbehavior can alert public's cautiousness on some irresponsible sayings then I am more than willing to do so.


After all I highly respect your effort creating those affordable full range speakers though thinking it can upset certain full ranger counterparts would possibly require a lot more effort. I prefer to have private communication with you to response on my understanding of Feastrex's technicals as my intend to jump in this thread and my points should have clarified in totality above.
 
1. So far I am quoting my own history. If this is classified as personal attack then it is.

2. If my temporary misbehavior can alert public's cautiousness on some irresponsible sayings then I am more than willing to do so.

After all I highly respect your effort creating those affordable full range speakers though thinking it can upset certain full ranger counterparts would possibly require a lot more effort. I prefer to have private communication with you to response on my understanding of Feastrex's technicals as my intend to jump in this thread and my points should have clarified in totality above.

Hi Fr338,
I would be nice to have a name? The forum's rules I think are clear. These include not "personalising" any differences of opinion. Another driver seller recently launched a personal attack on a member and moderator of this forum. His post was soon deleted. Your run the same risk if you continue to attack a member's character instead of debating technical and closely related issues.

Thanks for respecting my work, this is appreciated. This is precisely why I support this forum, and why I encourage members to contribute. DIY speaker building is a fantastic hobby, great fun and should be shared by more new people. It's up to members and buyers to make choices about which drivers they think best suits their needs. If only we could have all makers doing more to help the hobby progress, choices would be a little easier to make and everyone would benefit. Hence my point about encouraging all makers to publish more data.

Here's my definition of the situation (from our web site):

The perfect driver does not exist and never will, so be practical. Take an idea and work through the design. Test it and keep on improving it and test it some more. You can have all the theory in the world, but making something actually work is a totally different matter".

I'm available by private contact on this site, or by email (details) on our site.

Mark.
 
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...So for me, a $150 a pair set of drivers ended up walking all over other drivers costing more than 2K Euro a set. ... I can tell just by looking at those [Feastrex] ultra-thin cones that they will not please me.

Hi Inclined Plane, which were the $150/pair drivers you liked?

Incidentally, the Feastrex don't have that 2k whizzer peak as far as I can hear. :) But nor are they trying to be ultra-efficient like Lowthers, based on what little I know (very little!)
 
Dear Mr. Fenlon,
Thanks for helping me to clear this mess. I should not have jumped in to express my own view, shouldn't I? I always thought the spirit of this forum is for us to share our "experiences" and "views" on audio DIYing. I have been hit in a similar fashion based on similar personal attack on a chinese forum about Feastrex when all I did originally was to ask for technical data information and help for pointing me to more resource about this driver on internet, because I could find very little using google myself.

True I won't like everything made on this planet, and I don't confess I have esoteric grade audio gears, nor do I own a pair of golden ears that can immediately tell the difference between a $$$$$$ driver and a $$ one, or I don't care? I do love music so much that I try to correlate what I hear in real world with what was played through audio system, and that is the basis for any of my audio projects. My audio system is only there for me to enjoy a good day of music after work. I could live without any DIYing, but I could not live without good music.

Let's pick ourselves up and move on.
 
Hi Welborne,
I believe its right that ordinary members should be free to express themselves and challenges from commercial interests to their opinions should be kept well within the rules and spirit of the forum.

Agreed, it would be nice to move on, a point that perhaps could be best addressed between you and FR338 via private communication.

Hoping there's more contributions to this thread as it's got the potential to become interesting and informative.

Mark.
 
Sorry for not paying closer asttention to the thread but I was out for the weekend.
Ok, I used poor wording. Like you say, "best" is a very subjective thing.

My reference point is the Jordan Jx92s driver.
Superb voice handeling, surprising bass but not so much "air" and "space" in the upper range? I'll be experimentig a little with toe in the upcming days I think?

I might just redisign the enclosure and stick with the Jordans?

However, my initial thought was to increase powerhandling and the easiest way it seams is to use a separate driver for the bass.

So, a fullrange driver for the midrange and treable while using a separate driver for the bass.

The full range drive should have better "air" than the Jordan else there's no point in changing. I'm having a slight problem expressing myself in english, air is the closest thing I an think of at the moment.

Most people I talk with seam to think it's better to put the filter in the midrange than the bass. So, somewhere in the 300-500Hz region seams reasonable.

Hope this post makes more sense?
 
Oh, I did lok at the proposals given at the beginning of the thread.
Are Audio Nirvana coaxial drivers? >Anyway to low powerhandling.
Visaton is dropping a lot over the frequency range.
Most people I hear using Tang Band do it because of the price. Would any of you claim that they sound better than the Jx92s in the above mentioned regard?
Feastrex doesnt really sound like an option, expensive with poor documentation is not my cup of tea.
 
I'm very happy with my current ml tqwt's but I can't play really loud due to obvious power limits.

Maybe there's a new speaker project in the near future?
So, I'm toying with the idea of using a full range driver down to somewhere in the bass range and a big woofer for the bass.

Which full range driver would you say is the best?
My current spakers use Jordan JX92s.

Over the last 10 years or so I've collected numerous "full range" drivers. From old Altec to Diatones to Fostex, Jordan, etc. Full range driver is an oxymoron. Wide band should be used to describe these drivers.

If I had to choose only one wide band driver pair from my collection I would choose the Feastrex. Next would be the Visaton B200, then the JX92s and Diatones. The Fostex, Altec, Lowther and Markaudio don't sound as balanced or clear. (The Lowthers I have are the DX4 and DX55, which have superior mid/top then all the other drivers, but alas is unbalanced and needs a bass driver.)
 
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