Might be... All I found about then was that they were 90+dB.
So you'd say it's a huge difference between my Harman Kardon HK3490 versus the Primare I32?
The primare is a class D amplifier. Let's say I would build something similar myself, how much would it cost to get similar performance?
I don't really need my EL70 to go lower. I'm already in the process of building a pair of subs to cover about 40-50Hz and down. My Mar-Kel70 goes pretty flat down to about 55Hz where I get a huge peak and then at about 45Hz they fall off rapidly to become dead silent at 35Hz.
Don't know anything about Harman-Kardon amps really so I couldn't give a comparison. I love the sound of the chipset that is used in the Hifimediy amps (based on Tripath TK2050). This one is $25: T1-M TK2050 amplifier. Accepts from 9V to 24V DC supply voltage. Output power between 2 x 8W and 2 x 50W@4ohm|Hifimediy
This one is the one I think is very juicy, $84: Hifimediy T4 2 x 180W@8ohm amplifier w/ MUNDORF caps|Hifimediy ... Not because of the higher power, but because of the beefier components - should sound a bit better.
Then you need a power supply. As I recall, you want a 40W max amp to power EL70, and they're 4 Ohm drivers, so you'd want a 24V supply, about 100W and up. Fanless supply of course. I'd take Mean-Well HRP-100 for a good cheap supply that is simple to get running. I don't know what they cost, but I got a HRPG-300 supply for about 100 EUR, a bigger brother. I think you can find something for $50 probably.
Then connectors and a case ... But for $75 for amp+supply, I really really do think you can get a totally amazing amplifier.
If they're 90+ db, then they require about 1/4 the power to produce loud levels. Think about how that affects the system all around. I don't believe it's the amp, but you're free to explore all possibilities.
If you're listening loudly, to a ported EL70 that unloads below say 45hz and you have heavy 35hz kick drum, the cone will be flapping away madly, while at the same time trying to produce clean midrange. That is IMD. Get your subs running and high pass the EL70s. I bet you'll find the midrange cleans up at high volume a lot. This assumes you were listening to music with content below the tuning, which is likely with the music you listen to.
If you're listening loudly, to a ported EL70 that unloads below say 45hz and you have heavy 35hz kick drum, the cone will be flapping away madly, while at the same time trying to produce clean midrange. That is IMD. Get your subs running and high pass the EL70s. I bet you'll find the midrange cleans up at high volume a lot. This assumes you were listening to music with content below the tuning, which is likely with the music you listen to.
Sorry for bothering you so much, and if it sounds like I want a pair of Transmission Audio M3, but I really liked the sound of them!
I was thinking... Except from much more displacement the M3 also had a ribbon tweeter on a kind of open baffle. Could it be so that it added much of that extra dyanamic pressure I am thinking about? I mean, the snare drums sound rather dull on my speakers when they sounded very realistic on the M3...
Do you think that a pair of EL70/channel will be enough to sound somewhat realistic at somewhat loud volume?
I was thinking... Except from much more displacement the M3 also had a ribbon tweeter on a kind of open baffle. Could it be so that it added much of that extra dyanamic pressure I am thinking about? I mean, the snare drums sound rather dull on my speakers when they sounded very realistic on the M3...
Do you think that a pair of EL70/channel will be enough to sound somewhat realistic at somewhat loud volume?
Niklas,
It's a fact that the EL70 will not be able to match the ribbon tweeter on the top end. But probably a dual driver EL70 will give more dynamic SPL vs a single driver setup.
I took a pair of EL-70 from my dual driver Wessex cabinet and put them int the Half Towers. Surprisingly I got slightly deeper and fatter LF (probably combination of lower tuning and less damping), but midrange magic was reduced.
The amp is also something to consider here. A few years back I used a Marantz amp that had a warm sonic signature and took the harshness off metal dome tweeters, but overall sound became muddy. I have not heard your HK amp, but system synergy (source, amp, speakers) needs to be considered too.
One way you can find out is do a dual driver build and put those EL-70 to good use!
But again, the HF extension you will get from an Alp 7 or ribbon tweeter will be more vs the EL-70.
I actually have some thoughts on spending maybe $2000 or so on a pair of good speakers I can be happy with for a while. Probably some 3-way design to play loud enough...
I had some free time today and I could probably have finished atleast one cabinet for the EL70, but it's -15c and snowstorm outside and I'd have to cut the particle board outdoors
I had some free time today and I could probably have finished atleast one cabinet for the EL70, but it's -15c and snowstorm outside and I'd have to cut the particle board outdoors
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Per box - 2 el166s or sdx7s or ? to 300 hz, 2 el70s and then add a ribbon if you wish and I doubt any $2000 speaker would be significantly better especially if they put a crossover in the midrange. But I understand if you're tired of hobbying and just want to start making your ears bleed I've been through that myself with Altec A7s in a small room. Hold on tight.
I've been through that myself with Altec A7s in a small room. Hold on tight.
Niklas,
If you are truly tired of hobby builds then guess pre-made is the only alternative.
Otherwise folks have heard the Twin EL166 MLTL and commended the LF response. There's one version in the plans with a tweeter instead of the FR, in case if HF dispersion is a concern. Total cost of parts is likely around $200 + shipping. Maybe worth a try? Rest of $$$ can be spent for a good class D amp like Hypex or a good Tripath build.
If you are truly tired of hobby builds then guess pre-made is the only alternative.
Otherwise folks have heard the Twin EL166 MLTL and commended the LF response. There's one version in the plans with a tweeter instead of the FR, in case if HF dispersion is a concern. Total cost of parts is likely around $200 + shipping. Maybe worth a try? Rest of $$$ can be spent for a good class D amp like Hypex or a good Tripath build.
I'm not so sure that Niklas is tired of hobby builds quite yet - if any of us had to fabricate out-doors in sub-zero blizzard, our enthusiasm would be damped.
The dual EL166(woofer6) MTM certainly doesn't lack musical bass, well into the lower 40s I'd guess - but I don't have the equipment or desire to measure. This particular pair with Fostex FF85K(decent enough HF dispersion for me) has 1st order series passive XO, but there's probably no reason why such a set-up couldn't be actively bi-amped.
I'm definitely not tired of DIY, not yet I just don't have time to build anything, tomorrow I work day and evening shift at work, that is around 14hrs at work tomorrow, then spending holidays away from home.. And ofcourse the bad weather and soon school starts again.
I'm not only after LF performance now. I want more dynamic midrange and treble, would it be best to start with a new all-round stereo amplifier? That could be done indoors, just need to buy a soldering station...
I just don't have time to build anything, tomorrow I work day and evening shift at work, that is around 14hrs at work tomorrow, then spending holidays away from home.. And ofcourse the bad weather and soon school starts again.I'm not only after LF performance now. I want more dynamic midrange and treble, would it be best to start with a new all-round stereo amplifier? That could be done indoors, just need to buy a soldering station...
I'm definitely not tired of DIY, not yet
I'm not only after LF performance now. I want more dynamic midrange and treble, would it be best to start with a new all-round stereo amplifier? That could be done indoors, just need to buy a soldering station...
To replace the existing HK AV receiver, or supplement it? While I'd always be inclined to recommend a budding DIYer to try their hand at at least one tube amp project, the landed cost in your neighborhood for something appropriate to your current stage on the journey ( i.e. I can't see you happy for long with a 3wpc SET) could be a bit steep. The HK's possible shortcomings aside, you'd probably want to target a 35-50W "chip" or digital amp kit to hear an effective upgrade. Quite possibly trying a well executed 2 way (FAST etc) might be worth considering before changing amps- there are plenty of examples to find on this and other forums as well.
Well, I've already started a new thread in the multi-way section. I just think the EL70 wont be able to satisfy me. I mean, it's a good driver, especially for its price, but it can't play loud enough and not with enough dynamics. I have tried putting my 24dB/octave active XO at 300Hz but still not enough. The cone isn't flapping very much but when I turn up the volume loud enough it starts to sound bad and I take that as a sign that I'm close to the limit...
XOed at 300 Hz it should be very dynamic. I suspect you are running out of amplifier. Whrn you had them loke this what were you using for woofers?
dave
My HK3490 should be able to make the EL70 smoke. I don't want to try it but I'm darn sure it is well enough for the EL70... Rated at 2x150W @4ohm...
Used no woofer. Only my 10" subs in open-air on low volume (to survive) hooked to the 2x52W old Yamaha amp.
Let me tell you the tale of the 20w amp that had more real world power than the 200w one...
A significant portion of the music that creates the feel of dynamics is the 80-250 Hz range. Sounds like you didn't have anything playing in that range so dynamics would automatically be missing no matter what "mids" you were using.
dave
A significant portion of the music that creates the feel of dynamics is the 80-250 Hz range. Sounds like you didn't have anything playing in that range so dynamics would automatically be missing no matter what "mids" you were using.
dave
Well, the EL70 can't play very loud at 80Hz as far as I know... 84 dB/1w/1m and 20W max and 2.5m away...
Regarding the amp... harman/kardon HK 3490 Measurements and Analysis — Reviews and News from Audioholics
I know specs doesn't tell the whole truth, but in this case it appears to be kind of true...
That should not disqualify it from being a very good extended range midrange.
The new CSS VRX126 looks very promising as a state-of-the-art extended mid. Use from something like 160 Hz to 5-10k and XO to a quality ribbon at the top, and something serious on the bottom. Something akin to the ideas behind the von Schweikert Unifield 3.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
dave