Mar-Kel70 in Sweden

[Rullknufs]

Apparently the lower woofer is a passive radiator.
The thing with CD/waveguide is that I'd have to design my own passive filter and I fear that's way above my skill level.

Not picking on looks, just getting inspiration

What about the Alpair 12p? Would it be able to play loud enough? In that case maybe an Alpair 12P crossed over to some woofer at like 200-400Hz? That way I would avoid XO in the sensitive area. But how high do the 12P go? Maybe I would need a tweeter?

[chrisb]

Originally Posted by tuxedocivic

Perhaps I misunderstand how that speaker works (only looking at photos), but that is a stupid combination. Neither speaker makes very much bass.

to exactly which speaker do you refer, and have you heard them?

If the WLM Lyra, or any of Martin's other designs, there are numerous on-line reviews that could dispute the assertion of "stupid combinations" - to paraphrase these fora re Zaph - "these guys know their onions"

If you do like that look, do what I've been saying all along. Alpha 8 over your choice of subwoofer and under a nice CD/waveguide combination. Some of the images look like a better bass driver than the alpha 8, so maybe they've changed it or something. That would be what you want to do.

And the tweeter is a mystery.

Are you picking your speaker choices based on looks? Usually not a good idea.

While WLM has probably become most well known for their active systems, buried in Srajan's full review of the Grand Viola is a short history of the evolution of the Lyra passive design.
6moons audio reviews: WLM Grand Viola Signature MkII

disclaimer: as I presume to be the case of many of us here, I've never heard any of the WLM products, but they certainly have the appearance of well engineered designs.

[chrisb]

Originally Posted by Rullknufs

Apparently the lower woofer is a passive radiator.
The thing with CD/waveguide is that I'd have to design my own passive filter and I fear that's way above my skill level.

for those of us that share your fear or lack of expertise in filter design, there are plenty of folks here glad to offer assistance

Not picking on looks, just getting inspiration

What about the Alpair 12p? Would it be able to play loud enough? In that case maybe an Alpair 12P crossed over to some woofer at like 200-400Hz? That way I would avoid XO in the sensitive area. But how high do the 12P go? Maybe I would need a tweeter?

The Alpair12P does a lot of things very nicely, but even if XO'd to dual woofers, and tweeter if deemed necessary ( at a certain age or with damaged hearing, the "returns on investment" could diminish), would not be my first choice for a "play loud enough"? system.

If for no other reason than confidence in durability at louder SPLs, I think Ryan's advice to consider something along the lines of Pro Audio components might be your best bet.

[Rullknufs]

Yes, but would these other people be able to make it simple enough for me? I have no experience or knowledge at all when it comes to crossovers and it seems like a very difficult topic to study.

I don't want to play at rock festival levels. As I said, the System Audio speakers I tried a couple of months ago could play loud enough and when I played louder than I'd ever do here at home I hit around 108-110dB peak levels.

[tuxedocivic]

Rullknufs: Stick with a multi-way to satisfy your dynamic needs right now. Go crazy and build something nuts. Unless you want to now get away from that and get back into the finesse of a full ranger.

A beta 8a with a passive radiator would make even less bass. That's just silly. Are there subs on the back?

As for passive cross over design, there should be a few out there. I think Zilch made an econo wave mini. I have one coming down the pipeline for that driver. It'll be after I do a build using the Delta 10a though. If you can bear a wider design, there's already some 10" and 12" designs available.

Chrisb: I've heard the alpha 8a and it can make some bass when ported, but that's still a stupid combination. Why use an effecient pro mid driver for bass duty when you're using an effecient pro mid driver for mid driver duty. Like I said, perhaps there's more to it. I can't read the languages that most of the documenation is in.

We're talking about the speaker pictured at the very bottom of the link you posted? It has a beta 8 and an alpha 8... Most of the pictures feature a different driver combination. I think the configuration is worthy of exploration for Rullknufs. Just with a proper woofer rather than an effecient pro mid.

[tuxedocivic]

posting while posting

Yes, but didn't you say those System Audio speakers were crapping out on you? If you find a cross over design you like, I can help walk you through assembly. Especially if it's simple, it's not bad. Or find a design with active settings and use your minidsp. I usually do an active design for everything I build.

Perhaps you could scale back from the pro stuff and try a 6.5" 2 way with a subwoofer. I'd still use a waveguide. At high volumes, flush mounted domes crumple. I've been there, done that. They have their use, and I use them all the time, but to really be dynamic and effortless it has to have low end gain from a waveguide.

Take this cheesy design for example: Small and/or WAF builds using the Denovo stuff

3rd one down called WAF-2.y. Uses a cheap woofer, cheap CD/waveguide. Has active settings. Now, it's not the most hifi thing going, but it's purpose built. I finally knew I liked this speaker when I played a real dramatic mellow song by Diana Krall at insanely loud levels. It's a quite song so I deceptively kept turning up the volume. Until she really belted a very emotional part of the song at ear splitting levels. Well, that tiny little box with cheap drivers, sounded deadly clean. Tingles down the spine clean.

The only dome I've heard come close to that is the CSS LD25x in a waveguide. Which Dave has a design coming for that. That will be more hifi, but cost more. If you're patient, that might be quite the ticket in smaller form and higher fidelity.

And if I can keep rambling on like a blabbering bafoon, my EL70 desktop setup, still blows my mind. Best imaging and detail of anything I've heard. Period. < Just doesn't have the realism of sitting back 3m and cranking it > I'm interested to see what alpair 7s could do on my desk.

[Rullknufs]

6.5" could work, if it will play loud and dynamic enough. Even if I got with an 8" I'd still need a subwoofer to reach that 30-35Hz I want.

I could wait maybe 1½ month, then I have to decide to build something. I'm going to a hifi show in Gothenburg on september 15-17 with my dad and maybe I could get some inspiration there.

[chrisb]

Ryan:

yes, even when Srajan and manufacturers with whom he may dialog in such lengthy reviews both write in English, the prose is oft "otherworldly / arcane" enough that it might as well be Norse, but FWIW here are some snips that I think describe the current configuration of the Lyra II that Niklas mentioned several posts above:

This success created dealer inquiries for a flagship model. The Grand Viola concept was birthed, using the original PAC (tweeter) system * coupled to an Eminence Kappa Pro 10-incher with cast aluminum basket. A parallel development launched the Lyra, a Viola in passive guise with 8" driver. That prototype suffered from anorexia, i.e. lack of body. Enter its passive radiator. An expensive SEAS unit and an Asia-sourced car audio driver were tested, with the SEAS shredded to pieces after a 5-minute test run. The mobile audio diaphragm proved indestructible.

...
This led to WLM's current adjustable pipe-within-a-pipe port and shifted the previously sealed boxes of the entire line to ported alignments. The end result? The Lyra, to date, is the best-selling model in the WLM range.


...
"Time and again, we as manufacturer have had to accept the sad fact that many of our dealers would sell our products without the specially developed compensation solutions. This short-circuits our development process and overall philosophy which relies on hard-hung drivers. Those cannot plumb ultimate depths without gain compensation. People who neglect that fact really shouldn't complain about lacking bass and its concomitant leaner presentation.


"That's why our original Lyra was equipped with the auxiliary 8" passive resonator - to extend its bass performance. In the spring of 2007 however, the supplier of our 8" passive driver informed us that production of this part had been discontinued. There's no global demand for such a part. Even competing manufacturers no longer had anything usable for our purposes in their catalogues. This forced us to revisit the Lyra. A conventional 3-way with soft-suspended high-end drivers sans high efficiencies and compromised output, precision, control and agility it was clearly not going to be though.

"Multiple iterations then eventually ended up with a 2.5-way circuit and completely new crossover as the ideal solution. This created a loudspeakers which even without active compensation truly does perform at the highest level. In fact, the results were so persuasive that our prior reference model, the Grand Viola Signature we were going to send you for review, saw itself categorically dethroned by our new €6,800 Lyra MkII.

so exactly what is the mid-bass driver compliment and enclosure tuning configuration of the current LyraII - I gave up google-searching to attempt to ascertain that after a few minutes - your guess is as good as mine

what is the PAC, you ask?

Setup
Being equipped with a SuperPAC treble system has two practical consequences.
A/, the speakers arrive as clearly marked left and right specimens (refer next to the serial number on the terminal plate for the designator) - they should not be reversed.
B/, the speakers must be aligned such that the included asymmetrical directionality jig aims straight at the listening position. Only when these directions are followed will the tweeter system work as advertised. Using a bright flashlight for a look-see behind one perf tweeter grill revealed two circa 2-inch paper cone drivers with dust caps, loaded into some kind of generously flared wave guide each and then angled outwards away from each other .

Now, from the ridiculous to the sublimely affordable - how about those EL70s? - maybe I said before how freaking great I think they are. In the application you envision ( small desk-top/near field) I think you could expect the Alpair7 to do image, top end and inner detail like crazy, but not to deliver anywhere near the bass of the EL70

[tuxedocivic]

Hmm, ya I have know idea what drivers they have in there now. The final sentence about it being a 2.5 way still leads me to believe it's a single beta 8 over a single alpha 8. Who knows.

Yes, alpair 7 may be in order some day considering my daughter thought dustcaps were toy car horns

[Rullknufs]

Originally Posted by chrisb

Ryan:

Now, from the ridiculous to the sublimely affordable - how about those EL70s? - maybe I said before how freaking great I think they are. In the application you envision ( small desk-top/near field) I think you could expect the Alpair7 to do image, top end and inner detail like crazy, but not to deliver anywhere near the bass of the EL70
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The EL70 are great, to non-complex music at average levels. My application is not small desk-top/near field. Listening distance is about 3m in a ~16sqm room.