Hi All.
I found my way here from the Home Theater Shack DIY Subwoofer forum and CSS.
I am looking into full range speakers as an option for me to build.
What I like about the concept is, no crossover to fuss with and tweak, driver placement issues on the baffle, and all the other bother with a 2 way or three way system.
I am no stranger to building speakers (did a house brand back when I worked at an audio store) so box construction and driver fitting is a no brainer for me.
My question is:
What kind of output levels can be expected with these drivers (Alpair 7, ALPAIR10FR and ALPAIR12)?
My listening room is 15x19x8 (carpet on the floor) partly open to the rest of the house.
My current system is:
Linn LP12
Cambridge Audio CD 6
B&K Pro 10 MC
Harman/Kardon Citation 16 (Solid State 150 watts rms in to 8 ohm's)
Paradigm Studio 60's V3 Rosenut Finish (bought at dealer cost, good deal)
Tara Labs Space and Time Power cable (Pre-amp)
Tara Labs Reference Gen 2 bi-wire Speaker Cable
Vampire Cable Power Cord (CD Player)
Vampire Cable Silver Interconnects CD-Pre Amp-Power Amp.
Low bass and subwoofer duty is well looked after (see my threads at the Shack)
I am only in need of 100 hz and up, so either and active crossover or good passive to the Mark Audio's.
I know the H/K is to much power, but has good current and is a good sounding amp for it's age (34 years old) but I don't want to kill the little full range'ers trying to get good listening levels (I know that is subjective, but levels that makes carrying on a normal conversation difficult) in a room the size I have.
So if anyone can help me out, I will pick drivers and be on my way.
Thanks in advance.
Dave.
I found my way here from the Home Theater Shack DIY Subwoofer forum and CSS.
I am looking into full range speakers as an option for me to build.
What I like about the concept is, no crossover to fuss with and tweak, driver placement issues on the baffle, and all the other bother with a 2 way or three way system.
I am no stranger to building speakers (did a house brand back when I worked at an audio store) so box construction and driver fitting is a no brainer for me.
My question is:
What kind of output levels can be expected with these drivers (Alpair 7, ALPAIR10FR and ALPAIR12)?
My listening room is 15x19x8 (carpet on the floor) partly open to the rest of the house.
My current system is:
Linn LP12
Cambridge Audio CD 6
B&K Pro 10 MC
Harman/Kardon Citation 16 (Solid State 150 watts rms in to 8 ohm's)
Paradigm Studio 60's V3 Rosenut Finish (bought at dealer cost, good deal)
Tara Labs Space and Time Power cable (Pre-amp)
Tara Labs Reference Gen 2 bi-wire Speaker Cable
Vampire Cable Power Cord (CD Player)
Vampire Cable Silver Interconnects CD-Pre Amp-Power Amp.
Low bass and subwoofer duty is well looked after (see my threads at the Shack)
I am only in need of 100 hz and up, so either and active crossover or good passive to the Mark Audio's.
I know the H/K is to much power, but has good current and is a good sounding amp for it's age (34 years old) but I don't want to kill the little full range'ers trying to get good listening levels (I know that is subjective, but levels that makes carrying on a normal conversation difficult) in a room the size I have.
So if anyone can help me out, I will pick drivers and be on my way.
Thanks in advance.
Dave.
Hi Dave,
If you want loud you want the bigger driver. A12 is rated as 89 dB/1m. And demand in the bass will be minimal, so you likely have no need to worry about running into xMax.
C16 outputs 150 w (but doesn't overload all that gracefully from my recollection), lets say 160W (makes the math easier). Say you want to reserve 10 dB headroom, then you have average 16 W. Lets guess that in your smallish room level at 2 m is about what you get as "ambient" thruout the room, then you have 99 dB average levels. No sane person is going to listen at those levels. Give yourself 20 dB headroom and at 89 dB it would still be REAL loud.
In my much bigger room i'd be perfectly happy with a good 10 w tube amp with good overload recovery,
You can do the math for the other drivers.
At 100 Hz or so you want to put the XO before the amplifier.
dave
If you want loud you want the bigger driver. A12 is rated as 89 dB/1m. And demand in the bass will be minimal, so you likely have no need to worry about running into xMax.
C16 outputs 150 w (but doesn't overload all that gracefully from my recollection), lets say 160W (makes the math easier). Say you want to reserve 10 dB headroom, then you have average 16 W. Lets guess that in your smallish room level at 2 m is about what you get as "ambient" thruout the room, then you have 99 dB average levels. No sane person is going to listen at those levels. Give yourself 20 dB headroom and at 89 dB it would still be REAL loud.
In my much bigger room i'd be perfectly happy with a good 10 w tube amp with good overload recovery,
You can do the math for the other drivers.
At 100 Hz or so you want to put the XO before the amplifier.
dave
Hi Dave (Service Guy),
Following on from Dave's (Planet 10) comments, I'd suggest the Alpair 12 to take care of lower mids and up. The output from this driver will be more than enough for your set up.
Just one thought regarding your Citation 16. It's knocking on in years:
harman/kardon ƒXƒeƒŒƒIƒpƒ��[ƒAƒ“ƒvCitation16‚ÌŽd—l ƒn�[ƒ}ƒ“ƒJ�[ƒhƒ“
Have you done any work to it? I'd be tempted to check it over. The transformers are likely to be bomb proof but other components maybe a different matter. I'm a devotee of older solid state (Sansui 900 series & Sony Taf-333EX all Japan units) but nothing lasts forever. Both my beloved amps are in dry dock undergoing maintenance. Tony's stepped in and lent me a very nice 300B.
The cones on the Alp12's are quite micro-resonance sensitive so a clean signal feed is desirable.
Cheers
Mark.
Following on from Dave's (Planet 10) comments, I'd suggest the Alpair 12 to take care of lower mids and up. The output from this driver will be more than enough for your set up.
Just one thought regarding your Citation 16. It's knocking on in years:
harman/kardon ƒXƒeƒŒƒIƒpƒ��[ƒAƒ“ƒvCitation16‚ÌŽd—l ƒn�[ƒ}ƒ“ƒJ�[ƒhƒ“
Have you done any work to it? I'd be tempted to check it over. The transformers are likely to be bomb proof but other components maybe a different matter. I'm a devotee of older solid state (Sansui 900 series & Sony Taf-333EX all Japan units) but nothing lasts forever. Both my beloved amps are in dry dock undergoing maintenance. Tony's stepped in and lent me a very nice 300B.
The cones on the Alp12's are quite micro-resonance sensitive so a clean signal feed is desirable.
Cheers
Mark.
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Hi Mark.
Thanks for the response.
No I have not done anything to the H/K and yes it is getting on in years.
I am in the process of getting my Golden Tube Audio SE-85 corrected so that it will not send the EL-34's off like flash bulbs when trying to listen to it (long story).
If it can be corrected to work properly I will use that amp, if not I am going to look at another tube amp.
The H/K will be retired if I can find a tube amp that suits my needs and does not cost a mint.
When the time comes I will be purchasing from CSS.
Mark, am I better to use an electronic crossover or a high quality cap to high pass the Alpair 12?
I used to do that in car audio if the customer did not want to spend money on an x-over, I would cap the positive lead for high pass.
Thanks Again.
Dave.
Thanks for the response.
No I have not done anything to the H/K and yes it is getting on in years.
I am in the process of getting my Golden Tube Audio SE-85 corrected so that it will not send the EL-34's off like flash bulbs when trying to listen to it (long story).
If it can be corrected to work properly I will use that amp, if not I am going to look at another tube amp.
The H/K will be retired if I can find a tube amp that suits my needs and does not cost a mint.
That is what I was looking for.
When the time comes I will be purchasing from CSS.
Mark, am I better to use an electronic crossover or a high quality cap to high pass the Alpair 12?
I used to do that in car audio if the customer did not want to spend money on an x-over, I would cap the positive lead for high pass.
Thanks Again.
Dave.
Hi Dave (Service guy),
Yep, EL34 should do nicely.
If it were me, I think I'd try a small (ish) sealed box for the Alp12's. Possibly something around 12 litres might get you a natural roll-off around 100 to 150Hz. Thus reducing (or eliminating) the need for control on the Alps. Sorry I've no time to do calcs but its worth exploring this idea as there's a good chance it could simplify your build.
As a general guide, its usually best to use no active or passive control on Full Range drivers, rather to rely on optimised driver-cabinet combos to do the work. A cap can be added later is you need more frequency space for the woof.
It's not always possible to be so "purist" but trying to keep a set-up simple is usually a recipe for success.
Cheers
Mark.
Yep, EL34 should do nicely.
If it were me, I think I'd try a small (ish) sealed box for the Alp12's. Possibly something around 12 litres might get you a natural roll-off around 100 to 150Hz. Thus reducing (or eliminating) the need for control on the Alps. Sorry I've no time to do calcs but its worth exploring this idea as there's a good chance it could simplify your build.
As a general guide, its usually best to use no active or passive control on Full Range drivers, rather to rely on optimised driver-cabinet combos to do the work. A cap can be added later is you need more frequency space for the woof.
It's not always possible to be so "purist" but trying to keep a set-up simple is usually a recipe for success.
Cheers
Mark.
Hi Mark.
That was fast............
That 12l box sounds real easy to do.
So your are saying that...........
I am guessing that a narrow as possible baffle and rounded over is the best way to go?
Thanks again Mark for the fast response........... Customer service in action.
I do it everyday (I am a parts dept. manager at a large marine and powersport dealer).
Dave.
That was fast............
That 12l box sounds real easy to do.
So your are saying that...........
Sorry for the questions but I am new to the whole full range idea, so over excursion is not a problem when using the small sealed box?
No need to do that, I can play with box sizes (I have lots of MDF and tools)
I am guessing that a narrow as possible baffle and rounded over is the best way to go?
Thanks again Mark for the fast response........... Customer service in action.
I do it everyday (I am a parts dept. manager at a large marine and powersport dealer).
Dave.
Attached is the FR sim of:
6 L Q ~0.707 (butterworth)
10.5 L Q ~ 0.577 (bessel)
16.5 L Q ~ 0.5
Once you decide on box size, it would be well worth the investment in good many-ply plywood. The resolution of the A12 is sufficient that MDF will bury the lowest level detail.
dave
6 L Q ~0.707 (butterworth)
10.5 L Q ~ 0.577 (bessel)
16.5 L Q ~ 0.5
Once you decide on box size, it would be well worth the investment in good many-ply plywood. The resolution of the A12 is sufficient that MDF will bury the lowest level detail.
dave
Attachments
The Eico is a nice little amp with good iron. An honest 12 W, and that it is some 40 years + old a testament to its reliability. If they haven't already the caps should be swapped out for modern ones.
It should have no diificulty driving the A12 especially given your use as an extended mid tweeter.
My electronics guy got one of these in for basic maintenance, and shortly thereafter brought it back twice for further enhancements. He is thrilled with it.
We have a similar topology amplifier built up from scratch based on Scott iron and it is a stunner, even thou only 3.2 W (Class A triode)
EL84 is my favorite output tube.
dave
It should have no diificulty driving the A12 especially given your use as an extended mid tweeter.
My electronics guy got one of these in for basic maintenance, and shortly thereafter brought it back twice for further enhancements. He is thrilled with it.
We have a similar topology amplifier built up from scratch based on Scott iron and it is a stunner, even thou only 3.2 W (Class A triode)
EL84 is my favorite output tube.
dave
Hi Dave (Service Guy),
Here's an 12 watt EL84 amp we've been using with the Alpair 12's. Its made by Tony Wong (member ID is Musik007) here in Hong Kong. I like it very much.
I'm trying some vintage Polam EL84 tubes in this amp during the next 2 weeks.
Cheers
Mark.
Here's an 12 watt EL84 amp we've been using with the Alpair 12's. Its made by Tony Wong (member ID is Musik007) here in Hong Kong. I like it very much.
I'm trying some vintage Polam EL84 tubes in this amp during the next 2 weeks.
Cheers
Mark.
Attachments
Hi Dave (Service guy),
Tony' EL84 is full of nice goodies, posh caps and all.
Tony makes another amp - 12 watt 6V6. It's cheaper, all new parts which is handy. I'm running this unit on other drivers right now. I also like this amp. It's very smooth and warm which might be a nice match for the Alp12's since you're adding LF via woofs.
I'll connect Alp12's to it, take some pics and let you know.
I think you're look at spending 700 USD including the shipping.
Cheers
Mark.
Tony' EL84 is full of nice goodies, posh caps and all.
Tony makes another amp - 12 watt 6V6. It's cheaper, all new parts which is handy. I'm running this unit on other drivers right now. I also like this amp. It's very smooth and warm which might be a nice match for the Alp12's since you're adding LF via woofs.
I'll connect Alp12's to it, take some pics and let you know.
I think you're look at spending 700 USD including the shipping.
Cheers
Mark.
Hi Dave (service guy),
Here's 2 pics of Tony's 6V6. Consists of 4 X 6v6 doing the power, 2 X EL84 making for an interesting driver stage and a single input 12 AX7.
Tony tells this is a minimalist power 12 watt (Class A/B) push-pull design. I'll give the Alp12's some more play time on this amp and feed back.
Cheers
Mark.
Here's 2 pics of Tony's 6V6. Consists of 4 X 6v6 doing the power, 2 X EL84 making for an interesting driver stage and a single input 12 AX7.
Tony tells this is a minimalist power 12 watt (Class A/B) push-pull design. I'll give the Alp12's some more play time on this amp and feed back.
Cheers
Mark.
Attachments
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$350 CAD is a fair price if it is in good shape mechanically, cosmetically, and functionally, It has a bit of collector value in it. I'd suggest that it is much better engineered than your Golden Tube. If the caps & critical Rs have been replaced it is probably very good value.
The local i mentioned probably has >$600 into his. And he is very pleased with it. And with the value for the dollar.
With the upgrades i've mentioned and perhaps bypassing the tone stacksi i'm going to guess it to be in the same sonic ballpark as the 2 amps Mark has posted. If you can diy those bits you'll come in at less than Tony's amps, if you pay someone to do it, it will likely be more.
There are a number of well documented amplifier projects (with many variations & cross-pollination) that are also in this amplifier "class". El Cheapo, Red Light District, Baby Huey, Music Machine. Depending on iron, parts and execution they range from good to giant killers.
dave
Hi Dave.
I think it is not to bad of a deal, I can have all the caps and resistors changed at no cost (with top quaility parts) so I offered the gentleman $300 dollars and I will see what happens.
I won't find out until Friday, I am leaving at 4am EST for Florida on a business trip.
I will post up when I know more.
I may have a buyer for the GTA as a parts amp.
Later.
Dave.
I think it is not to bad of a deal, I can have all the caps and resistors changed at no cost (with top quaility parts) so I offered the gentleman $300 dollars and I will see what happens.
I agree.
I won't find out until Friday, I am leaving at 4am EST for Florida on a business trip.
I will post up when I know more.
I may have a buyer for the GTA as a parts amp.
Later.
Dave.
Hi Dave (service guy),
Don't worry too much re missing the Eico. There's usually a downside to owning an older amp. I love old gear but much of my collection sits in boxes. I don't have the time to play with these toys. When I did have time, I was forever changing parts. I had a lovely British Leak amp but by the time I'd finished repairs, most of the original components had to be ditched. I ended up with a virtually new amp and could never get to sound like the original!
Anyway, have fun in your search.
Cheers
Mark.
Don't worry too much re missing the Eico. There's usually a downside to owning an older amp. I love old gear but much of my collection sits in boxes. I don't have the time to play with these toys. When I did have time, I was forever changing parts. I had a lovely British Leak amp but by the time I'd finished repairs, most of the original components had to be ditched. I ended up with a virtually new amp and could never get to sound like the original!
Anyway, have fun in your search.
Cheers
Mark.
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