Thought I'd post my impression of an Alpair 6 BR I made recently. A bit of background, I follow DIY audio and enjoy reading about the various designs people have produced, why things work and so forth. Anyway, every 12 months or so, I'll build something for myself (or for a friend to help them out but also to get to listen to a new driver or design).
My wife usually takes little interest apart from how long each evening I'm going to be under the house/in the garage and what king of mess I'm going to make etc... She also happens to be a classically trained pianist & cellist, as are her sisters, so she's got a good pair of ears. Anyway, previously I've knocked up BLH, MLTL, open baffle, BIB, BR boxes with a few other full range drivers or co-axials and the most reaction I've ever got was, "that's nice".
So my mate asked me to help him make a couple of small book shelves and initially wanted two pairs of FR125S in BR as he'd listened to a pair I gave to the father in law. Anyway after reading about the new Mark Audio drivers and a description on one thread where Scott Moose talks about the frequency response that had been engineered into these, I thought they might be good, so I suggested making a pair of each, as I figured at worst, some music would be better on one, some music would be better on others, at least he'd have choice.
I built a bass reflex similar in dimension to Dave@Planet-10's "mMar-Ken6 1v0". Put the drivers under the house, let them run for a few days, put them in their boxes, brought them up to the living room to have a listen. The wife, "what's that?", me "those speakers for Tim, he's coming around to pick them up", I put on a string concerto for her to have a listen, the wife, "oh my god, that's amazing! they're clear as a bell. your not giving those away are you?", me "yeah", wife, "you better make a pair for me!". Looks like I'll be making another pair then.
The thing that I notice most about these drivers is the balance. Honestly after using BSC on other drivers/designs and feeling OK, but never 100% happy with the sound, I finally realised why those bumps and dips were put into the frequency response. There's a Scott Moose thread somewhere that explains it well, but when you listen, you understand. For me, these Mark Audio drivers are unique in what they do.
Now here's where I would appreciate some some help. I want to go for drivers with good highs (which the wife hears much better than I) but wouldn't mind a bit more weight than the Alpair 6 bass reflex. I'm interested in the Spawn MBVR designs, but there doesn't appear to be anything for Alpair 7 or 12. My questions now are:
1) Anybody have any idea how the MBVR designs sound compared to MLTL (as that is mostly what I've seen on Mark Audio's website).
2) I like the sound of good horn bass, so would that be the kind of bass sound the MBVR would produce?
3) Can I get away with the Alpair 7 in a floorstander or would I need Alpair 12 for weight? These would go in our medium sized living room, she listens to classical, I listen to jazz/pop/rock, nothing real heavy.
4) How do the CHR-70s compare to Alpair 7? Will they still do the highs?
I'm leaning towards Alpair 7 in floorstander mainly due to price. Any recommendations peoples?
Thanks,
Cangaceiro
My wife usually takes little interest apart from how long each evening I'm going to be under the house/in the garage and what king of mess I'm going to make etc... She also happens to be a classically trained pianist & cellist, as are her sisters, so she's got a good pair of ears. Anyway, previously I've knocked up BLH, MLTL, open baffle, BIB, BR boxes with a few other full range drivers or co-axials and the most reaction I've ever got was, "that's nice".
So my mate asked me to help him make a couple of small book shelves and initially wanted two pairs of FR125S in BR as he'd listened to a pair I gave to the father in law. Anyway after reading about the new Mark Audio drivers and a description on one thread where Scott Moose talks about the frequency response that had been engineered into these, I thought they might be good, so I suggested making a pair of each, as I figured at worst, some music would be better on one, some music would be better on others, at least he'd have choice.
I built a bass reflex similar in dimension to Dave@Planet-10's "mMar-Ken6 1v0". Put the drivers under the house, let them run for a few days, put them in their boxes, brought them up to the living room to have a listen. The wife, "what's that?", me "those speakers for Tim, he's coming around to pick them up", I put on a string concerto for her to have a listen, the wife, "oh my god, that's amazing! they're clear as a bell. your not giving those away are you?", me "yeah", wife, "you better make a pair for me!". Looks like I'll be making another pair then.
The thing that I notice most about these drivers is the balance. Honestly after using BSC on other drivers/designs and feeling OK, but never 100% happy with the sound, I finally realised why those bumps and dips were put into the frequency response. There's a Scott Moose thread somewhere that explains it well, but when you listen, you understand. For me, these Mark Audio drivers are unique in what they do.
Now here's where I would appreciate some some help. I want to go for drivers with good highs (which the wife hears much better than I) but wouldn't mind a bit more weight than the Alpair 6 bass reflex. I'm interested in the Spawn MBVR designs, but there doesn't appear to be anything for Alpair 7 or 12. My questions now are:
1) Anybody have any idea how the MBVR designs sound compared to MLTL (as that is mostly what I've seen on Mark Audio's website).
2) I like the sound of good horn bass, so would that be the kind of bass sound the MBVR would produce?
3) Can I get away with the Alpair 7 in a floorstander or would I need Alpair 12 for weight? These would go in our medium sized living room, she listens to classical, I listen to jazz/pop/rock, nothing real heavy.
4) How do the CHR-70s compare to Alpair 7? Will they still do the highs?
I'm leaning towards Alpair 7 in floorstander mainly due to price. Any recommendations peoples?
Thanks,
Cangaceiro
Getting Alpair 7 to work in an MBVR has been problematic. There is a horn (coming) for these.
I've not yet gotten my A7 or A12, but from what i have heard from Scott, and with what Mark has put into these Mark II Mark Audio drivers i fully expect them to be setting new standards.
dave
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I've not yet gotten my A7 or A12, but from what i have heard from Scott, and with what Mark has put into these Mark II Mark Audio drivers i fully expect them to be setting new standards.
dave
Fullrangeman - Nao, eu sou um Australiano com amigos Brasileiros. Eu nao falam Portugues, mas eu reconheco algumas palavras.
Inclined Pane - The first time I saw a double horn, I thought what the hell is that. Damn, it's ugly. But I changed my mind over time and I like them now quite alot!
Dave - I love that horn design. I've looked at the MBVR style "horns" for Mark Audio drivers, but I hadn't seen any long path horns (LPH) designs for MA. I assumed they weren't suitable as most LPHs drivers have strong magnets, light cones & small cone movements. Will this be the first long path horn for a Mark Audio driver? Will it have some weight to the bottom end like a BIB? I'm amazed. Please let us all know a little more when you can. Could be my next build.
Inclined Pane - The first time I saw a double horn, I thought what the hell is that. Damn, it's ugly. But I changed my mind over time and I like them now quite alot!
Dave - I love that horn design. I've looked at the MBVR style "horns" for Mark Audio drivers, but I hadn't seen any long path horns (LPH) designs for MA. I assumed they weren't suitable as most LPHs drivers have strong magnets, light cones & small cone movements. Will this be the first long path horn for a Mark Audio driver? Will it have some weight to the bottom end like a BIB? I'm amazed. Please let us all know a little more when you can. Could be my next build.
There are 5 of them. (CHR-70, EL70), A6, A7, A10, A12
They should get down close to where a BIB does, with no need for a corner, and more control & finese.
dave
Hi Cangaceiro,
I afraid they are ''brincando com voce!! Voce sabe o que significa ''cangaceiro''??
Dave - I am seriously excited about those new designs. I had a FR125S BIB and loved the effortless sound of the bass. The only issue I had was the mids were a little recessed. Maybe I overstuffed thing or damaged the mids by tuning it too low (57hz). Anyway, it was fun to listen to and it did make me like horns again, which after building the FE206E BLH, I did not. It also made me think that if you could find a driver with better balance and good highs (insert Mark Audio here), you could make a horn that goes high, has controlled mids and effortless bass. That pretty much covers everything I could want from a single driver speaker. If you can do that, it will be mighty achievement, because I love full range, but everything I have made so far was compromised. This looks to be something that achieves (within reason) all the things that are good about full range. Very interesting stuff mate, can't wait to find out more.
Fullrangeman - Thanks for the tip. Yes I know about the cangaceiros. I trained capoeira for 7 years so I think they give me this nickname to make fun. I stopped due to injury, but I still train BJJ. Brasil is an amazing country my friend. The people especially.
Fullrangeman - Thanks for the tip. Yes I know about the cangaceiros. I trained capoeira for 7 years so I think they give me this nickname to make fun. I stopped due to injury, but I still train BJJ. Brasil is an amazing country my friend. The people especially.
Not everything. It trades efficiency for extension & smoothness. Now that i have a really nice 20+ watts in my system, that isn't so hard to give up.
The A7 & A12 horns may well achieve 9+ octaves...
dave
Hey Dave, keep posting, because everytime I wish for something, it's there in your next post!
Yeah I guess we can't always have it all. I moved back my yamaha SS amp since using the FR125S and recently the Mark Audios. In fact after implenting BSC on other drivers, the 300B has been in storage and this SS amp is all that gets used. Part of this was because the wife often forgets to switch the amp off after using it, which is not problem with the SS amp, but I care about the 300B and I don't like it being abused, so unfortunately it's not being used at the moment.
The stepped expansion style horn looks similar to the designs that Fostex like to implement. I have no preference for or against this style of horn, but can you advise the rationale for choosing this style to implement? Is it easier to calculate or is it an easier build for people (right angle cuts etc)? It's very interesting trying to understand the how and the why of this design.
Thanks
Cangaceiro.
The idea actually comes from Harry Olson. The Japanese kept the idea alive.
The stepped horn & the bump in the cross-section at each fold attenuate the high frequencies and keep them out of the mouth. The bass frequencies don't care.
And it makes it very simple to build. The more people build them, the more people get to enjoy them
dave
The stepped horn & the bump in the cross-section at each fold attenuate the high frequencies and keep them out of the mouth. The bass frequencies don't care.
And it makes it very simple to build. The more people build them, the more people get to enjoy them
dave
The A7 pretty much matches the A6 through the midband despite having a larger cone (more advanced profile & suspension). The smaller driver as-is has a fractional edge, if you're in a small room & playing really delicate material, but otherwise little in it on that score. The A7, being a little larger, has greater power-handling. The A12 has substantially more of course, can't match the midband & HF of the little 'uns, but it makes a heck of a good attempt & isn't far off at all considering that it's got almost 4 times the pistonic area of the A6. They're all really nice units.
The CHR70 sounds like an A7 with some of the detail removed, nice forgiving little driver. As for what would suit, depends on how large you can go & which sonic areas you happen to place the greatest value on.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder; some find them quite attractive.
The CHR70 sounds like an A7 with some of the detail removed, nice forgiving little driver. As for what would suit, depends on how large you can go & which sonic areas you happen to place the greatest value on.
No disrespect as I'm sure those dblh horn designs sound wonderful, but their appearance is downright HIDEOUS.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder; some find them quite attractive.
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Dave - I'm with you there on the simple build.
Scottmoose - You and Dave have been creating some interesting double horn designs. What made you choose the long path horn for the Mark Audio drivers? From my limited understanding, I thought the more suitable a driver's specs for bass reflex or mltl, the less suitable for a BLH and vice versa. Most horn drivers have low Qts and low x-max, the Alpairs seem to be the opposite. Can you educate me a little more on this?
Scottmoose - You and Dave have been creating some interesting double horn designs. What made you choose the long path horn for the Mark Audio drivers? From my limited understanding, I thought the more suitable a driver's specs for bass reflex or mltl, the less suitable for a BLH and vice versa. Most horn drivers have low Qts and low x-max, the Alpairs seem to be the opposite. Can you educate me a little more on this?
Scottmoose - Am reading this thread http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/85156-spawn-frugel-horn-2.html. Forget my last questions, I think you may have answered them here already.
Alpair 7 - CHR70
My impressions are ....
Alpair 7 - Widerange, many details, Base dynamic range is special.
When music source provides strong base signals to Alpair 7 response is very different from any other speakers.
Because of the special spider and soft front suspension, linearity is superb I felt something funny by this respionse and dynamic range ( needs more idling) .
Hi - frequency is beautiful. but carefully chose quality speaker cables.
if cables, CD player and/or amplifier has some charactor, you suddenly see the difference.
CHR70 - The reasonable driver, a guy of ex-Luxman said " This is the best choice especially taking into account the price. "
This driver has no nervous response. easy to use.
I personally prefer Alpair7 because it is not a sound of fullrange.
No Hone, T/L speaker I use, only bassref speakers.
My impressions are ....
Alpair 7 - Widerange, many details, Base dynamic range is special.
When music source provides strong base signals to Alpair 7 response is very different from any other speakers.
Because of the special spider and soft front suspension, linearity is superb I felt something funny by this respionse and dynamic range ( needs more idling) .
Hi - frequency is beautiful. but carefully chose quality speaker cables.
if cables, CD player and/or amplifier has some charactor, you suddenly see the difference.
CHR70 - The reasonable driver, a guy of ex-Luxman said " This is the best choice especially taking into account the price. "
This driver has no nervous response. easy to use.
I personally prefer Alpair7 because it is not a sound of fullrange.
No Hone, T/L speaker I use, only bassref speakers.
Attachments
After re-reading my comment I feel it need additional explanation.
"funny feeling" - I never heard this kind of base sound such as deep and strong. There are many drivers which produce lower frequency response but Alpair 7 base sound clearly different to any other unit (after using Matsubara san's spider 7 12 has same charactor) .
" not a sound of fullrange" - Alpair7 generates 30,000hz hi-freq. response this makes very beautiful Hi-tone sound but also with this base sound, my impression is just like a well balanced multi-way speaker system.
Cabling test -
I am using 1) ofc + silver coated 2) 6n ofc 3) ordinal ofc
(1) is best match to my speaker
system Denon DCD s10mark3 CD player
acuuphase e307 pre-main amp.
"funny feeling" - I never heard this kind of base sound such as deep and strong. There are many drivers which produce lower frequency response but Alpair 7 base sound clearly different to any other unit (after using Matsubara san's spider 7 12 has same charactor) .
" not a sound of fullrange" - Alpair7 generates 30,000hz hi-freq. response this makes very beautiful Hi-tone sound but also with this base sound, my impression is just like a well balanced multi-way speaker system.
Cabling test -
I am using 1) ofc + silver coated 2) 6n ofc 3) ordinal ofc
(1) is best match to my speaker
system Denon DCD s10mark3 CD player
acuuphase e307 pre-main amp.
Norio - Thanks for your comments. I've tried swapping amps and have noticed considerable differences, but I have never tried swapping speaker cables yet. what does "6n" and "ordinal" stand for? I am assuming "ofc" stands for oxygen free copper. can you describe the effect on the sound from changing cables?
Scott - Do you have a release date for these plans?
A long path horn for Mark Audio drivers is something that interests me very much. I was googling around all December thinking someone must have made plans for these, but found nothing. Then Dave mentions that you guys are designing some, it's like receiving a gift. Do you plan to start a thread for these new designs? Your horn designs have me interested in horns again.6N copper
Yes, it means.....
6n - means 99.9999 % oxygen free copper, my cable is wrapped by very hard material shows direction of cable as well.
4N - ordinal 99.99% oxygen free, this wrapping is quite soft
6N cable provides more details and hi-frequency clear,
silver coated is very beautiful and soft sound.
4N (1/3 price of others, half thickness) music instruments are not separated.
What I wanted to tell is Alpair 7 give me very clear difference, of cause there are many kind of good cables within ofc 4N, please understand my comment is under restricted tests.
Sound difference may be because of 1) cable vibration is different by kind of materials, 2) dumping factor difference by wrapping material 3) impedance of cabels itsself - I surprised the difference this time.
Yes, it means.....
6n - means 99.9999 % oxygen free copper, my cable is wrapped by very hard material shows direction of cable as well.
4N - ordinal 99.99% oxygen free, this wrapping is quite soft
6N cable provides more details and hi-frequency clear,
silver coated is very beautiful and soft sound.
4N (1/3 price of others, half thickness) music instruments are not separated.
What I wanted to tell is Alpair 7 give me very clear difference, of cause there are many kind of good cables within ofc 4N, please understand my comment is under restricted tests.
Sound difference may be because of 1) cable vibration is different by kind of materials, 2) dumping factor difference by wrapping material 3) impedance of cabels itsself - I surprised the difference this time.
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