Hi,
I am looking for a full range driver to use as a midrange in a 3 way open baffle.
All the best - most lifelike and dynamic - drivers I have heard have been full ranges like Lowther, Coral, Fostex, etc.
Can anyone suggest a driver that would make a great mid range ( 250 - 2k+) without having to cut of wizzer cones etc?
What are the Supravox and PHY drivers like (never seen or heard these)?
I bought Seas Exotic W8's, hoping that they would do what I want, but so far I am disappointed - they sound quite flat
. I will continue to run them in, but I suspect that I need to find an alternative.
Thanks
David
Background information on my project:
I am building a 3 way partially open baffle system. The most important things for me is to have life (energy/dynamics), timing (PRAT), and balance.
I was (for about 7 years) using a pair of reworked Alon Phalanxs, and did really like the openness that the open baffle gave to the midrange and top end. The things that I was less enthusiastic about in these speakers were the complexity of the 4 way design and getting the drivers to integrate, the metal dome tweeter, and the relative inefficiency. I have been listening a lot to light paper cone speakers (Lowthers and Coral Beta 8s) in other setups, and have been very impressed with the life and dynamics.
To that end, I decided to do a high efficiency semi open baffle speaker, with a light paper cone midrange, and tweeter mounted in a panel, and a bass in a vented box underneath, with an average efficiency of 94db.
I have bought the following drivers:
Seas Exotic T35 and W8, tweeter and mid
Seas Exotic T35 Tweeter
Seas Exotic W8 Woofer
Here are a couple of pictures:
Crossovers to be at 250Hz and 2K, very simple first order. The W8 also offered the possibility of running it with no lower filter due to it's high xmax.
The 15' bass drivers that will be in a 140L box will be these:
Kilimanjaro Field Coil 150VWLs
They are essentially JBL K145 field coils.
So far I have been testing, measuring and listening to the the drivers. The T35 sounds fantastic, but I am less impressed with the W8 which does not have the life that I hoped for.
I am looking for a full range driver to use as a midrange in a 3 way open baffle.
All the best - most lifelike and dynamic - drivers I have heard have been full ranges like Lowther, Coral, Fostex, etc.
Can anyone suggest a driver that would make a great mid range ( 250 - 2k+) without having to cut of wizzer cones etc?
What are the Supravox and PHY drivers like (never seen or heard these)?
I bought Seas Exotic W8's, hoping that they would do what I want, but so far I am disappointed - they sound quite flat
. I will continue to run them in, but I suspect that I need to find an alternative.Thanks
David
Background information on my project:
I am building a 3 way partially open baffle system. The most important things for me is to have life (energy/dynamics), timing (PRAT), and balance.
I was (for about 7 years) using a pair of reworked Alon Phalanxs, and did really like the openness that the open baffle gave to the midrange and top end. The things that I was less enthusiastic about in these speakers were the complexity of the 4 way design and getting the drivers to integrate, the metal dome tweeter, and the relative inefficiency. I have been listening a lot to light paper cone speakers (Lowthers and Coral Beta 8s) in other setups, and have been very impressed with the life and dynamics.
To that end, I decided to do a high efficiency semi open baffle speaker, with a light paper cone midrange, and tweeter mounted in a panel, and a bass in a vented box underneath, with an average efficiency of 94db.
I have bought the following drivers:
Seas Exotic T35 and W8, tweeter and mid
Seas Exotic T35 Tweeter
Seas Exotic W8 Woofer
Here are a couple of pictures:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Crossovers to be at 250Hz and 2K, very simple first order. The W8 also offered the possibility of running it with no lower filter due to it's high xmax.
The 15' bass drivers that will be in a 140L box will be these:
Kilimanjaro Field Coil 150VWLs
They are essentially JBL K145 field coils.
So far I have been testing, measuring and listening to the the drivers. The T35 sounds fantastic, but I am less impressed with the W8 which does not have the life that I hoped for.
Well you've already tossed some serious Euros at the project. What do you mean by the Seas driver being 'flat' sounding?
Also, you shouldn't have to cut off any whizzers. If it's cut at 2k, the whizzer will simply not be adding its response. Unless you don't like the look.
I suggest the Fostex F200A for midrange use. It's less efficient, but quite beautiful in sound and appearance!
Also, you shouldn't have to cut off any whizzers. If it's cut at 2k, the whizzer will simply not be adding its response. Unless you don't like the look.
I suggest the Fostex F200A for midrange use. It's less efficient, but quite beautiful in sound and appearance!
I want to give this one a go for my next OB project. http://profesional.beyma.com/pdf/8M70E.pdf
I'll be using my AMT1's above 7K and am still undecided on the woofer but will most likely go with a Beta 15
I would love to try a http://profesional.beyma.com/ingles/pdf/6P200Fe.pdf but I can't seem to locate anyone selling them in the US at the moment.
I'll be using my AMT1's above 7K and am still undecided on the woofer but will most likely go with a Beta 15
I would love to try a http://profesional.beyma.com/ingles/pdf/6P200Fe.pdf but I can't seem to locate anyone selling them in the US at the moment.
Last edited:
Yeah, the Seas Exotics were not cheap.
I just find the mid sounds undynamic. The tweeter has lots of life, whereas the W8 is just going through the motions. I am playing music through it constantly to see if it will loosen up.
I had understood that the wizzer will cause interference patterns in the upper mid, and that it was better to lose it.
What do you like about the F200A? At 90db it is a bit inefficient to work in my project.
Cheers
David
Hi,
If you do not want to throw money around, the Audax PR170M0 is a pretty good choice as OB mid, even in a low efficiency system.
The old SD-Acoustics SD-1 which is probably one of my favourite british 80's/90's speaker used this padded down to around 88dB/W/m (and with lacquered cone) in an open back box, together with a Foster Leaf tweeter and a sealed box 10" Woofer, IIRC (memories are getting more hazy as age creeps up)...
Funny thing, my current speakers seem very much a mixture of 80's/90's british speaker Ideas, kind of like combining the ideas of the Epos ES-25 with the SD-Acoustics SD-1 and a good dash of Acoustic Energy from the Phil Jones days thrown in... Not bad all around, but a little too small to impress the guys who build stonehenge, which is usually my consideration for a "good" speaker.
But, as you are not on a budget, the Supravox 215-2000 EXC OB is probably my choice.
Except, I personally would probably double them up in series and dump that dome tweeter for a nice HE ribbon/planar/amt (many options) and set things up in MTM and I would use a somewhat a little larger bass driver (think 24", I always think of 15" drivers as lower midrange devices...) also doubled up, with the lower one sealed and the upper one dipole.
Basically:
24" W (dipole-passive)
9" M (dipole-passive)
T (dipole-passive)
9" M (dipole-passive)
24" W (sealed-active)
This forms my current "modest proposal" - an ongoing speaker concept that takes it's name of Swift's satirical "Modest Proposal" which has yet to be financed and build... :-(
Ciao T
If you do not want to throw money around, the Audax PR170M0 is a pretty good choice as OB mid, even in a low efficiency system.
The old SD-Acoustics SD-1 which is probably one of my favourite british 80's/90's speaker used this padded down to around 88dB/W/m (and with lacquered cone) in an open back box, together with a Foster Leaf tweeter and a sealed box 10" Woofer, IIRC (memories are getting more hazy as age creeps up)...
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Funny thing, my current speakers seem very much a mixture of 80's/90's british speaker Ideas, kind of like combining the ideas of the Epos ES-25 with the SD-Acoustics SD-1 and a good dash of Acoustic Energy from the Phil Jones days thrown in... Not bad all around, but a little too small to impress the guys who build stonehenge, which is usually my consideration for a "good" speaker.
But, as you are not on a budget, the Supravox 215-2000 EXC OB is probably my choice.
Except, I personally would probably double them up in series and dump that dome tweeter for a nice HE ribbon/planar/amt (many options) and set things up in MTM and I would use a somewhat a little larger bass driver (think 24", I always think of 15" drivers as lower midrange devices...
) also doubled up, with the lower one sealed and the upper one dipole. Basically:
24" W (dipole-passive)
9" M (dipole-passive)
T (dipole-passive)
9" M (dipole-passive)
24" W (sealed-active)
This forms my current "modest proposal" - an ongoing speaker concept that takes it's name of Swift's satirical "Modest Proposal" which has yet to be financed and build... :-(
Ciao T
Hi,
I had the first ever pair of 215-2000 EXC OB (open baffle variant), as they where originally intended as the "special edition" drivers for a somewhat abortive commercial open Baffle Speaker:
Noteworthy Audio Loudspeakers 2
I listened to them for about two years. They are very evenhanded sounded with no obvious single outstanding strenth or weaknesses, just good music all across the board, for the range they cover. Mine where C37 lacquered of course.
Their dynamic range falls a little short of a pair of 15" corner horn loaded Tannoys (hardly a surprise). They convey microdynamics and immediacy much better, I'd say nearly level with a Goodmans Axiom 80 (but without the Goodmans drawbacks).
For really low and deep bass a (sub)woofer is needed, but depending on bafflesize a solid 100Hz resonse without EQ with -6dB in room at around 50Hz with a sufficiently large baffle.
I used a dual 12" Pro Driver sealed active Sub and Visaton TL-16H Horn supertweeters at around 60Hz (3rd order) and 15KHz (1st order) to extend the bandwidth of the Baffles shown.
If you mean with "life" the agressive and forward edge of especially the Lowthers and the Whizzered Fostex, no that is completely absent. If you mean that directness and immedacy that gets you very involved in the music - I'd say it is much more in the class of the Feastres Drivers and the Goodmans Axio 80 (and similar also to the Phy HP) and as low down as Lowthers and especially Fostex (I find the Fostex that do not take my ears off sound like dead feet).
You can read what Troels Gravensen has to say about them (he did not have the 2000's which are a distinct step up from the lower ranking cheaper stuff).
The only fly (make that monster Mothra) in the ointment is the not insubstantial amount of Euros per pair...
Ciao T
I had the first ever pair of 215-2000 EXC OB (open baffle variant), as they where originally intended as the "special edition" drivers for a somewhat abortive commercial open Baffle Speaker:
Noteworthy Audio Loudspeakers 2
I listened to them for about two years. They are very evenhanded sounded with no obvious single outstanding strenth or weaknesses, just good music all across the board, for the range they cover. Mine where C37 lacquered of course.
Their dynamic range falls a little short of a pair of 15" corner horn loaded Tannoys (hardly a surprise). They convey microdynamics and immediacy much better, I'd say nearly level with a Goodmans Axiom 80 (but without the Goodmans drawbacks).
For really low and deep bass a (sub)woofer is needed, but depending on bafflesize a solid 100Hz resonse without EQ with -6dB in room at around 50Hz with a sufficiently large baffle.
I used a dual 12" Pro Driver sealed active Sub and Visaton TL-16H Horn supertweeters at around 60Hz (3rd order) and 15KHz (1st order) to extend the bandwidth of the Baffles shown.
If you mean with "life" the agressive and forward edge of especially the Lowthers and the Whizzered Fostex, no that is completely absent. If you mean that directness and immedacy that gets you very involved in the music - I'd say it is much more in the class of the Feastres Drivers and the Goodmans Axio 80 (and similar also to the Phy HP) and as low down as Lowthers and especially Fostex (I find the Fostex that do not take my ears off sound like dead feet).
You can read what Troels Gravensen has to say about them (he did not have the 2000's which are a distinct step up from the lower ranking cheaper stuff).
The only fly (make that monster Mothra) in the ointment is the not insubstantial amount of Euros per pair...
Ciao T
Hi thorsten,
Thanks for that info. I picked up a pair second hand. They are exactly what I am looking for!!
The photos online do not do these justice. The motor is an absolute monster. I am listening to one on the bench (no baffle) now, and it has phenominal dynamic grip! Really beautiful.
Never tried this (C37), did it make a difference?
I have heard a speaker system that had dual Axiom 80's - it was amazing! I think that comment was the clincher for me to buy!
Yes, they sound very even handed. At what frequency would you suggest crossing them over to a tweeter. I am thinking of around 4KHz which I hope will avoid the worst beaming.
I would say that they are worth it.
Thanks for that info. I picked up a pair second hand. They are exactly what I am looking for!!
The photos online do not do these justice. The motor is an absolute monster. I am listening to one on the bench (no baffle) now, and it has phenominal dynamic grip! Really beautiful.
Never tried this (C37), did it make a difference?
I have heard a speaker system that had dual Axiom 80's - it was amazing! I think that comment was the clincher for me to buy!
Yes, they sound very even handed. At what frequency would you suggest crossing them over to a tweeter. I am thinking of around 4KHz which I hope will avoid the worst beaming.
I would say that they are worth it.
Hi,
Sure, a very positive one too. Better tone and more relaxing/enjoyable to listen to.
If you paint drivers make sure to let them dry face down so no lacquer can run into the voice coil gap.
Combining a dipole with reasonably well absorbed rear wave and a beaming driver helps to reduce the amount of change in directivity index and flattens the in room power response.
I would let the Supravox run fully open and then use a suitable "super tweeter" with a first order crossover or even with an "extended lower treble shelf" type crossover to broaden the directivity at higher frequencies. I used a Visaton TL-16H horn tweeter with a crossover point of around 18KHz/-3dB so -6dB @ 9KHz and -12dB @ 4.5KHz...
Tuned to my personal taste of course.
Ciao T
Sure, a very positive one too. Better tone and more relaxing/enjoyable to listen to.
If you paint drivers make sure to let them dry face down so no lacquer can run into the voice coil gap.
Combining a dipole with reasonably well absorbed rear wave and a beaming driver helps to reduce the amount of change in directivity index and flattens the in room power response.
I would let the Supravox run fully open and then use a suitable "super tweeter" with a first order crossover or even with an "extended lower treble shelf" type crossover to broaden the directivity at higher frequencies. I used a Visaton TL-16H horn tweeter with a crossover point of around 18KHz/-3dB so -6dB @ 9KHz and -12dB @ 4.5KHz...
Tuned to my personal taste of course.
Ciao T
I think I will leave this to later. I want to try them au naturale first.
Thanks, I will try it both ways: full range with a super tweeter for support; and crossing over to a full tweeter at different frequencies.
By the way, when did you move to London?
I was there till 2007, would have liked to have met up.
Cheers
David
Hi,
Sure, so did I... ;-)
1994...
These days I still notionally call London home, but am rarely there.
I used to live in the Haringey/Edmonton area and used to hang out at meetings of the London Live DIY HiFi Circle.
Ciao T
Sure, so did I... ;-)
1994...
These days I still notionally call London home, but am rarely there.
I used to live in the Haringey/Edmonton area and used to hang out at meetings of the London Live DIY HiFi Circle.
Ciao T
Hi Thorsten,
Don't know the Haringey/Edmonton area. Lived in London for 11 years and only saw about 10% of it
I went over to London in 1990. I was initially in Cambridge (6 years), but then in Willesden Green. I always meant to hook up with the circle, but never got round to it. I had a small circle of audio friends in the UK - mainly who worked in the industry.
Since I moved back to Melbourne I have gotten involved with the Melbourne Audio Club, which is an excellent community. I have to admit that being exposed to so many new people has been good in opening my eyes to things I would not have previously considered - e.g. full range drivers.
I have always enjoyed your contributions on a variety of topics. Before leaving London I was working on a commercial NOS CD player (that never saw the light) with a friend. we, of course came into a lot of interesting and useful info written by yourself.
Have you moved into full time audio development, or ist is still a hobby?
Best Regards
David
It's good to hear of success with a full-range driver, particularly one as costly.
Graci!
How about the bass drivers?
It's good to hear of success with a full-range driver, particularly one as costly.
Graci!
How about the bass drivers?
Thanks Scott!!
I don't know about the bass drivers until I have tried them in a more finished box - the box I built for testing has no bracing/stuffing and is a little big. Having said that there is lots of promise. They have clarity and dynamics, and the sound is very variable with the PSU. I initially thought that I would run them at 10V - 12V for the best bass extension, but the bass tone is just so much nicer at 14V - 15V! The other observation is that they are reallly quick - I have never heard a 15" this quick.
I am also really happy with the tweeter - I can listen to it (1st order filter at 2K) on the bench all day long - it just makes music.
With the Supravox mid, I think I have the possibility of making something really special. I will use solid core teflon/silver wire throughout, but will stop short of the insane on the Caps - I have purchased some Auricaps on ebay for a good price and may also use a Mundorf Silver/Oil on the tweeter.
I am meeting with someone today to discuss building cabinets/baffles.
Cheers
David
Hi,
Can't blame you, Haringey & Edmonton is just north of Tottenham and there are many reasons not to go to Tottenham..
That's near Kilburn, right? I used to go to Kilburn quite often, shopping for stuff at Cricklewood Electronics. Do you know the place? Nearby is one of the Kashmiri/Nepalese Curry place in the western world, the Pink Rupee...
Too bad, the LLDIYHFC also hade (has? - it seems to have declined) quite a few industry members.
Yes, we used to have quite strong links with the MAC, often visiting MAC members would drop into one of our "Pub" meetings. These used to be quite fun.
Ahhh, well, I had better luck than you, I have two Non-OS CD-Players where I was the main design lead in the Market, both quite well received:
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/abbingdon/abbingdon.html
[URL="http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/amr4/777_2.html"]http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/amr4/777_2.html[/URL]
Kind of full time now.
Ciao T
Can't blame you, Haringey & Edmonton is just north of Tottenham and there are many reasons not to go to Tottenham..
That's near Kilburn, right? I used to go to Kilburn quite often, shopping for stuff at Cricklewood Electronics. Do you know the place? Nearby is one of the Kashmiri/Nepalese Curry place in the western world, the Pink Rupee...
Too bad, the LLDIYHFC also hade (has? - it seems to have declined) quite a few industry members.
Yes, we used to have quite strong links with the MAC, often visiting MAC members would drop into one of our "Pub" meetings. These used to be quite fun.
Ahhh, well, I had better luck than you, I have two Non-OS CD-Players where I was the main design lead in the Market, both quite well received:
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/abbingdon/abbingdon.html
[URL="http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/amr4/777_2.html"]http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/amr4/777_2.html[/URL]
[/URL]
Kind of full time now.
Ciao T
Hi Thorsten,
The closest I got to there would be holloway or Wood Green for some pro outlets I used to frequent.
Yes, next tube stop. Cricklewood Electronics was a regular haunt for quickly required parts. Don't know the curry house.
I meant to go, but was usually too busy - a mistake!
When I next come over for a holiday, i will definitely attend
The audio scene here is pretty strong for the population size - we have about 140 paid up members.
I don't think it is luck! The friend who I was working with is a brilliant audio engineer, but the real skills required to be successful are marketing and financial ( and luck ).
Anyway, he is still working on it he is a perfectionist. I have a prototype here which can give top vinyl setups a run.
Great! It is fantastic when you can do what you love for a living!
I did for a while in London, but not since moving back here.
Cheers
David
The closest I got to there would be holloway or Wood Green for some pro outlets I used to frequent.
Yes, next tube stop. Cricklewood Electronics was a regular haunt for quickly required parts. Don't know the curry house.
I meant to go, but was usually too busy - a mistake!
When I next come over for a holiday, i will definitely attend
The audio scene here is pretty strong for the population size - we have about 140 paid up members.
I don't think it is luck! The friend who I was working with is a brilliant audio engineer, but the real skills required to be successful are marketing and financial ( and luck
).Anyway, he is still working on it he is a perfectionist. I have a prototype here which can give top vinyl setups a run.
Great! It is fantastic when you can do what you love for a living!
I did for a while in London, but not since moving back here.
Cheers
David
Hello,
anyone have tested JA8008/TW034 from Seas and Troels Gravesen
I've seen this link and seem very interesting:
OB9Copyright 2009 ©
Ciao
Guglielmo
anyone have tested JA8008/TW034 from Seas and Troels Gravesen
I've seen this link and seem very interesting:
OB9Copyright 2009 ©
Ciao
Guglielmo
Hi Thorsten,
I have got my prototype 3 way up and running, with the Supravox running full range.
The open baffle acoustically rolls it of from 250Hz at 6db/octave. The 15" field coil bass integrates nicely in a ealed 125L box, although I have had to pad the Supravox down with a 1.7 Ohm resistor to match the bass and treble.
I have (for the moment) continued with the Seas tweeter, as I really like it's sound. However to get it to integrate, I have had to bring it in above 10K. Anything below this damages the midrange coherence.
Thanks for your help.
Cheers
David