One Fostex FE207E, (1 or 2)xFE167E, or (2 or 4)xFE127E?

[goldorak]

Hi Guys,

I am new here. I recently got a pioneer sc-07 receiver (150 W per channel) and Energy take 5 speakers with Energy 300 Watts ESW-V10 subwoofer. This is all connected to an i7 multimedia PC equipped with the Auzentech X-Fi HD sound card which outputs HD audio through HDMI to the receiver.

I felt i need a larger set of the front speakers at least at the beginning. searching the market for new speakers with good brands made me feel the prices are too much for the quality and power of these speakers. Then i decided i need to build my own. The speaker drivers in the market around me are mostly chinese. So through the net i saw this forum and as well i have seen fostex full range drivers in other places. A good start with less trouble of 3way speakers and crossovers.

I have small space for the speaker towers in the living room. I would like to use the FE207E ultimately but i might consider smaller diameter speakers so that they can fit with living room limited space, so i might use (1 or 2) FE167E in one box/channel, or even (2 or 4) FE127E in one box/channel? I am a little puzzled with what combination would be best. My room is 4 by 3.5 meters but open from one side to a larger area.

I would be gratefull if someone enlightens me of the differences between the above combinations. For example would 2 FE127E give enough bass comparable to the FE207E? or would 2xFE167E surpass the FE207E? or would 4xFE127E surpass the FE207E without loosing the benefits from single driver in a box?

I am still new so any advice would be excellent. Is a tweeter necessary with the above drivers (even the small size ones)?

[pjanda1]

Paralleling multiple fullrange drivers on the front of the cabinet will create comb filtering, which undesirable. I have had several customers ask me about using a parallel pair of my drivers, and I generally advise them to avoid it. (Despite the fact that I wouldn't mind selling more speakers!)

However, I've heard of folks doing it and being happy. I've also seen folks write that comb filtering isn't always audible. The comb filtering will begin at lower frequencies with the bigger drivers, which is generally a bad thing as you hear better in the midrange than treble. However, the larger drivers also generally have more high frequency rise, and as comb filtering would probably audibly shelve down the high frequencies, maybe it would somehow balance out for some folks.

The safe bet, IMHO, is to stick to one fullrange driver per speaker unless they are really small (and there are some particularly tiny drivers on the market). If you are more adventurous and want to give multiple drivers a shot, I'd be curious to hear about your experience. I wouldn't advise spending much time or money on the first cabinet though.

If you can move the speakers out into the room (not against a wall), then you can consider dipole arrangements with a driver on both the front and rear of the cabinet. Two smaller fullrangers can also be employed in dipole and bipole surround speakers.

If you want to try a couple of different things, you might consider 8" fullrangers in TL or ML-TL's for your mains, something sealed for the center channel, and then bipole/dipole surround speaker with a pair of smaller drivers.

Paul
Wild Burro Audio Labs - DIY Full Range Speakers

[goldorak]

Dear Paul,

Thank you for the response. I am learning new things everyday but bare with me my ignorance in some of the matters (although am doing some search over the net to minimize this). I tend to agree by intuition (not deep experience) that a single powerfull driver would be better as a safe experience especially that although it is a self done project, i am mainly using the experience of a carpenter to help me build the boxes and i'd have to learn a lot to guide him for a good design, nevertheless as i have mentioned, i am limited with asthetics (i.e. having to have a thin type of tower box in order to fit the furniture of the living room, so i have to sacrifice some performance).

Now, the 8 incher is the best bargin as power and bass reproduction i think, and i am thinking of adding a ribbon tweeter although the Fostex tweeters are almost the same price of the fullrange speaker (so more money to spend). since i am using the FE207E, i might go for a bass reflex type cabinet for now. The shape i am planning to fit the furniture might be starting as cylindrical at bottom and ending by half cylinder on top where the speaker lies so that i can fit the bass reflex tube in the full cylinder part at bottom ( I am new i know )

now back to my first questions, if we exclude comb filtering for a second, amongst the speaker combinations i have mentioned, which will deliver acceptable power? bass performance? etc.

another question would be, if i put 2xFE127E in a closed box for center speaker, would that be adequate? do they need a tweeter? in fact the combination of 2xFE127E was as well a preferred one for the LR channels because they can fit in a smaller tower, and also the comb filtering might be less due to their smaller sizes! but would they produce good power and bass?

[norman bates]

Whatever you do, have the exact same setup, meaning same speaker for left, center, and right.

I had luck with 2 x 4" TB bamboo, but the vertical sweet spot is tiny at 12'. But I like them because I believe smaller drivers have better detail than larger ones, especially without a whizzer.




But for most, I'd recommend a single 207e for left, center, and right.
That's a safe recommendation.
2 x fe127e = area of a single fe167e which is 1/2 of a 207e (close).

I've also found that the highest end can be missing watching movies due to the horrible sound quality of dolby digital (and dts). Breaking glass can make you cringe on a system that goes flat up to 20khz (compression). I had luck with a horn that gradually rolled above 5khz, then dropped like a rock at 10khz. But music was different.




Norman

[goldorak]

thank you norman for the recommendations. I do like larger speakers, I beleive the 207e is as large as i can put after i have convinced the wife that i will use a nice looking tower cabinet. for the center, i doubt that i can run away with a 207E, two smaller 127e will look better next to the LCd TV. Especially that currently my system and surround speakers are the energy take 5 satellites. nice little speakers backed up by a 300W rms 10 inch subwoofer capable of 23 Hz (based on specs).

Now to be fair the current sound that i have in my mid size room is very nice as i am using computer based processing in addition to the SC-07 pioneer. While watching Bluray movies i am experiencing true HD or DTS HD. The sound card is upsampling mp3 files (or more precisely ammeliorating them). Nevertheless the satellites are small, and they are crossoverd at 100Hz with subwoofer (the sc07 does not give option for 120 Hz). the satellites are not excellent perfomers i believe in the 100Hz to 300 Hz) or possibly as well lower mid range frequencies but that is not obvious for the unexperienced as the front ones are put in the wooden large cabinet holding as well the LCD TV thus generating slightly better bass.

I am mainly building these towers for music listening as i want to have nice sound from front LR speakers without the need to use stereo surround capabilities (i.e. using as well surround speakers) of the sound card or receiver. and as well enjoying higher mids. Now even if i used 2x127e for the center, i can live with some tweeking through the receiver for movies purpose (i know then i will not be benefiting from the full power of the 207 in movies but that is fine for movies, my room is not big.

[chrisb]

Originally Posted by goldorak

thank you norman for the recommendations. I do like larger speakers, I beleive the 207e is as large as i can put after i have convinced the wife that i will use a nice looking tower cabinet. for the center, i doubt that i can run away with a 207E, two smaller 127e will look better next to the LCd TV. Especially that currently my system and surround speakers are the energy take 5 satellites. nice little speakers backed up by a 300W rms 10 inch subwoofer capable of 23 Hz (based on specs).

Now to be fair the current sound that i have in my mid size room is very nice as i am using computer based processing in addition to the SC-07 pioneer. While watching Bluray movies i am experiencing true HD or DTS HD. The sound card is upsampling mp3 files (or more precisely ammeliorating them). Nevertheless the satellites are small, and they are crossoverd at 100Hz with subwoofer (the sc07 does not give option for 120 Hz). the satellites are not excellent perfomers i believe in the 100Hz to 300 Hz) or possibly as well lower mid range frequencies but that is not obvious for the unexperienced as the front ones are put in the wooden large cabinet holding as well the LCD TV thus generating slightly better bass.

I am mainly building these towers for music listening as i want to have nice sound from front LR speakers without the need to use stereo surround capabilities (i.e. using as well surround speakers) of the sound card or receiver. and as well enjoying higher mids. Now even if i used 2x127e for the center, i can live with some tweeking through the receiver for movies purpose (i know then i will not be benefiting from the full power of the 207 in movies but that is fine for movies, my room is not big.

What I take as the crux of this situation really comes down to "how important is the center channel speaker?"

It probably wouldn't be hard to find support for the opinion it's the most important speaker in a "proper" multichannel system. At the very least, you'd probably want to use identical drivers and as close to similarly voiced enclosure designs as possible for the front row. I'd imagine a single FE167E per channel would suffice, particularly if supported by powered sub(s), and if the room is not big.

Indeed, if the room is small enough, even FE127E all 'round could well work out, both sonically and in terms of more manageable enclosure sizes. The smaller driver also has the advantage of generally needing very little assistance in the upper octaves - while I personally find it quite acceptable solo, judicial amounts of EQ might be all that's required if you find the top end lacking - certainly a lot of folks are quite happy using the FE127 without tweeters.

There are any number of well documented tower style enclosures for either of these drivers, ranging from MLTLs to BVR to resistively vented "-kens".

[jleaman]

Originally Posted by chrisb

What I take as the crux of this situation really comes down to "how important is the center channel speaker?"

It probably wouldn't be hard to find support for the opinion it's the most important speaker in a "proper" multichannel system. At the very least, you'd probably want to use identical drivers and as close to similarly voiced enclosure designs as possible for the front row. I'd imagine a single FE167E per channel would suffice, particularly if supported by powered sub(s), and if the room is not big.

It is the important speaker of the 5.1-7.1 setup's Center is where all the voices / dialogue comes from, so center should be addressed as one of the most important.

In a 2.1 - 2.0 setup the left and right should be identical

Setup many many 5.1-7.1's and you woulden't belive how many people miss match the centers, then complain - wine about how the center is so quiet or not as clear etc etc.

I did setup a really nice system as the customer said he didn't have much room for big subwoofer so i told him buy 2 8" ones ( energy at the time ) and we used those with his tower's and center speaker. he was thrilled, at the start he didn't believe me that 2 8" would be loud, I said if you don't find it loud i'll pay for the 10" that he wanted, well in the end he said the 8" were loud and that was all he needed

[norman bates]

The center is critical, you need something that can give you output than a single left or right can do.

A single 167e is better than 2 x 127e due to vertical dispersion purposes for your use.

But I'd use 207e all the way across the front.

Better is better, and how many hours are you going to use this ?
It's worth it if you could make it work.

Norman

[chrisb]

Originally Posted by norman bates

The center is critical, you need something that can give you output than a single left or right can do.

A single 167e is better than 2 x 127e due to vertical dispersion purposes for your use.

But I'd use 207e all the way across the front.

Better is better, and how many hours are you going to use this ?
It's worth it if you could make it work.

Norman

Of course my question posed earlier was bait for the above couple of replies, but let's not forget that goldorak has indicated that this is a "small" room (actual dimensions could be handy), and that 3 enclosures suitable for 207s could be more than a bit imposing. At the risk of repetition, 167s, particularly with bass augmentation might well be adequate for this particular application.

[goldorak]

Guys,

I appreciate the discussion. I do agree that having 207E in the entire front is best, no argument. And of course using the 127e would be better from point of view aesthetics but hey J we like things bigger. Well it is not about bigger only, but hearing a larger speaker is more pleasant, more punch/presence, etc.

I have mentioned a rough estimate of my room dimensions earlier, it is LxWxH = 4x3.5x3 in meters of course. The room has the shape of a rectangle almost with one part of one side (around 3 meters of the 4 meters length side) open to a larger space and the rest of the house. The room tends to “preserve” the sound I would say by meaning that the current setup seems powerful "enough" when put at high volumes but not plentiful in frequency ranges such as mid bass and lower mid range. Treble is fine with the energy satellites. The sub is compensating a lot for the lower power of the satellites.

I was saying that I can live with a down sampled performance of the 207Es as LR speakers when in 5.1 mode, wouldn’t that work, i.e. having 2x127E in the center thus only using the power of the LR 207Es to match this power only when in 5.1 and using the full power of LR when in stereo listening?

I might get away with 2x167 for the center if the total width of the box put horizontally is 20 cm (the length can be larger), as this is the space available above the TV (to keep things tidy), other then that I might put it under the TV if I remove its stand and hang it on the back of the large wooden tv stand where it is lying now.

I am afraid however that the 2x167 might shake the wooden tv stand to resonate because it has wooden doors, even another glass door where the receiver and Home theatre PC lies, etc.

Another question popping up, I was looking at some tweeters from Fostex (might buy from Madisound Store online as I am not in the US), and they are expensive, the models I am looking at are the ribbon tweeter FT7RP (because of its considerably lower price in comparison to the other one) and the T90A which fostex recommends with the 207E in their drawings. Is the T90A much better then the FT7RP? I as well just seen the FT207D which is shielded (better next to the receiver) and lower price and has the same number of the 207e (is that intended?). But the T90A has the higher sensitivity. Any ideas in that area? The FT7RP tweeter is almost the price of the 207E, and the T90A is even higher, that is pretty expensive; the FT207D is the cheapest. Do I need to use Fostex capacitors to filter the tweeter or Chinese made capacitors for 2 dollars in my electronic shop would be enough?