back loaded horn bass frequency phase

wicked1 · 2nd December 2009, 05:23 PM

Do back loaded horns invert the phase of the bass frequencies? I dont know why, but I am having so much trouble pairing a sub to my horns..

When I have the sub xover turned up to 200hz or so, having the phase to 0 is obviously correct. I switch it, and all the mid/bass disappears from my horns. But, I turn the xover down to 80hz or so and bass is a little weak.. I flip the phase switch to 180 and hear MORE bass.. (but.. maybe its canceling some of the lower midbass from my horns and the lower bass is just seeming louder.. I dont know!)

Any advice?

hm · 3rd December 2009, 11:51 AM

Hello,
what kind of Horn,
and what sub do you use,
200 Hz is much to high for a sub.

Pit Hinder · 3rd December 2009, 12:35 PM

wicked1, I don´t always agree with hm (hi there - Hamburg got as lousy weather as Hannover at the moment?) but he is effing right - when using a single sub, 200 Hz is waaaay to high.
Plus, from what you write I suspect your sub Xover only cuts the sub off and leaves the horns to interfere in midbass...your room interacts with both and you get the puzzling results that cause you headache.

MJK · 3rd December 2009, 12:42 PM

If you look at the following computer simulation

http://www.quarter-wave.com/Back_Doo...er_7_03_09.pdf

starting on page 13 of the pdf file you will see the calulated SPL and phase for a back loaded horn. The driver, mouth, and combined SPL response are all shown.

wicked1 · 01:59 PM

Hey, thanks MJK, actually, I have a pass to d/l your worksheets... This is so simple.. even my grandparents have to pair a sub to their system.. I didn't think I'd need the mathcad

!
And no, I don't want my sub xovered at 200hz. I'm just trying to figure out the phase for the sub. When it's turned down to 80hz where it needs to be, I just can not tell which way the phase should go.. not at all.. My horns have faded by then, so there's not much frequency to cancel out.
So, I turn up to 200hz for what I would think would be an easier comparison. Which, it seems to be. Like I said in my first post I hear the frequencies getting canceled when the filter is turned up that high.
I'm just confused about why I seem to have the opposite results when I turn the filter back down low.

-Hey! and that mathcad sheet shows what I'm talking about! phase is flipped at just under 100hz and is that way till the low frequencies fade away from the horn!!!!!!!
I guess this is a little more complex than I thought.
Since I'm wanting to xover right where the phase changes, I think no matter what, I'll be canceling something..

well, maybe I'll spend some time modeling my exact speakers (just the fostex bk-16 kit from madisound) and see if it's the same.

Pit Hinder · 3rd December 2009, 03:07 PM

Martin, I´m still somewhat unhappy with your worksheets. I do agree that the laws of physics are the same, but accepting that wavelengths in centimeters do the same slow somersaults as in inches...OK, the flak you got for your TL thing had other reasons, but you never shut up, willya please?

MJK · 3rd December 2009, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pit Hinder

Martin, I´m still somewhat unhappy with your worksheets. I do agree that the laws of physics are the same, but accepting that wavelengths in centimeters do the same slow somersaults as in inches...OK, the flak you got for your TL thing had other reasons, but you never shut up, willya please?

Pit I have no idea where your comments are coming from, I don't see much in the way of constructive inputs in your posts. But if I am being asked to shut up maybe it is time to go silent here.

Scottmoose · 3rd December 2009, 04:07 PM

I would imagine Pit is kidding with you Martin, but I confess I've missed exactly what -I'm not at my best & brightest today (departmental Christmas night out yesterday...)

Pit Hinder · 3rd December 2009, 04:12 PM

Martin, that comment goes back to the time when we had contact years and years ago - you got lots of flak because self-appointed gurus got shot to pieces because you applied math and phys instead of smoke and mirrors. As to feet and inches - I still can´t think but metric.

Pit Hinder · 3rd December 2009, 04:31 PM

Scott, I hoped you´d know better. Never socialize with people who have got, and will get, on your nerves all the rest of the year. And you ought to be used to academiots...

2nd December 2009, 05:23 PM	#1
wicked1 diyAudio Member Join Date: Jan 2008	back loaded horn bass frequency phase Do back loaded horns invert the phase of the bass frequencies? I dont know why, but I am having so much trouble pairing a sub to my horns.. When I have the sub xover turned up to 200hz or so, having the phase to 0 is obviously correct. I switch it, and all the mid/bass disappears from my horns. But, I turn the xover down to 80hz or so and bass is a little weak.. I flip the phase switch to 180 and hear MORE bass.. (but.. maybe its canceling some of the lower midbass from my horns and the lower bass is just seeming louder.. I dont know!) Any advice?

3rd December 2009, 11:51 AM	#2
hm diyAudio Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: near Hamburg Germany	horn + sub Hello, what kind of Horn, and what sub do you use, 200 Hz is much to high for a sub. __________________ http://www.hm-moreart.de

3rd December 2009, 01:49 PM	#5
wicked1 diyAudio Member Join Date: Jan 2008	Hey, thanks MJK, actually, I have a pass to d/l your worksheets... This is so simple.. even my grandparents have to pair a sub to their system.. I didn't think I'd need the mathcad ! And no, I don't want my sub xovered at 200hz. I'm just trying to figure out the phase for the sub. When it's turned down to 80hz where it needs to be, I just can not tell which way the phase should go.. not at all.. My horns have faded by then, so there's not much frequency to cancel out. So, I turn up to 200hz for what I would think would be an easier comparison. Which, it seems to be. Like I said in my first post I hear the frequencies getting canceled when the filter is turned up that high. I'm just confused about why I seem to have the opposite results when I turn the filter back down low. -Hey! and that mathcad sheet shows what I'm talking about! phase is flipped at just under 100hz and is that way till the low frequencies fade away from the horn!!!!!!! I guess this is a little more complex than I thought. Since I'm wanting to xover right where the phase changes, I think no matter what, I'll be canceling something.. well, maybe I'll spend some time modeling my exact speakers (just the fostex bk-16 kit from madisound) and see if it's the same. Last edited by wicked1; 3rd December 2009 at 01:59 PM.

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3rd December 2009, 12:35 PM	#3
Pit Hinder diyAudio Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Hannover, Germany	wicked1, I don´t always agree with hm (hi there - Hamburg got as lousy weather as Hannover at the moment?) but he is effing right - when using a single sub, 200 Hz is waaaay to high. Plus, from what you write I suspect your sub Xover only cuts the sub off and leaves the horns to interfere in midbass...your room interacts with both and you get the puzzling results that cause you headache.

3rd December 2009, 12:42 PM	#4
MJK Account disabled at member's request Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Clifton Park, NY	If you look at the following computer simulation http://www.quarter-wave.com/Back_Doo...er_7_03_09.pdf starting on page 13 of the pdf file you will see the calulated SPL and phase for a back loaded horn. The driver, mouth, and combined SPL response are all shown.

3rd December 2009, 03:07 PM	#6
Pit Hinder diyAudio Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Hannover, Germany	Martin, I´m still somewhat unhappy with your worksheets. I do agree that the laws of physics are the same, but accepting that wavelengths in centimeters do the same slow somersaults as in inches...OK, the flak you got for your TL thing had other reasons, but you never shut up, willya please?

3rd December 2009, 04:07 PM	#8
Scottmoose diyAudio Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UK	I would imagine Pit is kidding with you Martin, but I confess I've missed exactly what -I'm not at my best & brightest today (departmental Christmas night out yesterday...)

3rd December 2009, 04:12 PM	#9
Pit Hinder diyAudio Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Hannover, Germany	Martin, that comment goes back to the time when we had contact years and years ago - you got lots of flak because self-appointed gurus got shot to pieces because you applied math and phys instead of smoke and mirrors. As to feet and inches - I still can´t think but metric.

3rd December 2009, 04:31 PM	#10
Pit Hinder diyAudio Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Hannover, Germany	Scott, I hoped you´d know better. Never socialize with people who have got, and will get, on your nerves all the rest of the year. And you ought to be used to academiots...

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