Am looking to build an Open Baffle project. Want to start with one "wide range" and progressively add a sub and super tweeter as required. Have ruled out Fostex and those with a Whizzer cone.
Short list is either a PHY-HP H21 LB or a Supravox 215-2000. I think the prices are similar, but still awaiting confirmation from PHY on their current price.
Anyone use both of them, or can add their experiences to this decision?
Short list is either a PHY-HP H21 LB or a Supravox 215-2000. I think the prices are similar, but still awaiting confirmation from PHY on their current price.
Anyone use both of them, or can add their experiences to this decision?
Alnico sound is very good!!
Hi Eeyore,
As both are Alnico magnet, choose by the price or QTS(very important for OB panel), PHY-HP QTS is higher (0,59) than SupraVox.
AT the PHY-HP Site, 8inches is 522euros and the 12inches H30LB15 12 inches ''just'' 300euros more at 815 each, the 12inches do not need subwoofer, just a tweeter (PHY-HP have a coaxial crossoverless woofer line with a tweeter in center-good value-)
The SupraVox I do not know but it have a QTS very low for a OB, surely need a woofer and xover.
Just a idea.
P.S.: PHY-HP drivers have life warranty. Good Luck
Hi Eeyore,
As both are Alnico magnet, choose by the price or QTS(very important for OB panel), PHY-HP QTS is higher (0,59) than SupraVox.
AT the PHY-HP Site, 8inches is 522euros and the 12inches H30LB15 12 inches ''just'' 300euros more at 815 each, the 12inches do not need subwoofer, just a tweeter (PHY-HP have a coaxial crossoverless woofer line with a tweeter in center-good value-)
The SupraVox I do not know but it have a QTS very low for a OB, surely need a woofer and xover.
Just a idea.
P.S.: PHY-HP drivers have life warranty. Good Luck
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I have only listened to the PHY-HP H21 LB in a 3 way Dipole and the music was wonderful. Female voices were rich in detail and powerful in dynamics. At reasonable SPLs, solo piano dynamics were also impressivly real in timbre and decay. He used Audio Research tube amps. I brought over a pair of Krell KMA100s that added more life to the bass with equally smooth vocals.
I built a pair of 102 db/watt dipole ribbon(0.7" wide by 6" long) tweeters for this friend who built the dipole 3 way with the PHY-HP H21 LB plus a pair of Lambda TD15D dipole speakers.
Search this forum for Graham's T-Bass circuit for dipole bass extension. It may fit your design goals.
I built a pair of 102 db/watt dipole ribbon(0.7" wide by 6" long) tweeters for this friend who built the dipole 3 way with the PHY-HP H21 LB plus a pair of Lambda TD15D dipole speakers.
Search this forum for Graham's T-Bass circuit for dipole bass extension. It may fit your design goals.
Attachments
I remember a french magazine "shoot-out" with the 8" Phy, Supravox *215*, and a Fostex unit.. IF I remember correctly, the Phy wasn't "1st place"..
Another problem is the relative *size* of the baffle in comparison to the dipole cancellation. Look the "Edge" (freeware program) for that determination. I think you'll find that it is unlikely you'll achieve anything near a flat response without a "helper" woofer.
My suggestion:
165 GMF and
285 GMF with an appropriate baffle and air core inductor for the low-pass of the 285.
Supravox has something similar using the 215 here:
Supravox DIY
Note that this was conceived of BEFORE the 165 became available. IMO the 165 is THE full-range driver "to beat" for overall value.
Hi all for the responses. A few question, why would the 165GMF be an ideal candidate? Given it has a low Qts, is it because of its sound quality? Is the Alnico thing really worth the extra money?
I also remember reading that magazine article, but can't seem to find it again...
How does Lowther or AER add to the mix?
I also remember reading that magazine article, but can't seem to find it again...
How does Lowther or AER add to the mix?
ALNICO is a Classic sound...
The Alnico price/performance ratio is a personal choice, for me is obligatory have the Alnico magnet as I like it.
In the 1960 years my father have a AM tube radio with EL34 and a Alnico 8 inches, OB full open back side. and it is most realistic music I lsten in my life, mainly in voices.
The Alnico magnet have to be recharged after 10 or 15 years, the other magnets type last more years. For me Alnico worth every gauss it have, as I always will wish that sweet sound, it is like a Tube vs Transistor issue, Alnico have the ''tube'' sound of speakers...
Regards
Hi Eeyore,
The Alnico price/performance ratio is a personal choice, for me is obligatory have the Alnico magnet as I like it.
In the 1960 years my father have a AM tube radio with EL34 and a Alnico 8 inches, OB full open back side. and it is most realistic music I lsten in my life, mainly in voices.
The Alnico magnet have to be recharged after 10 or 15 years, the other magnets type last more years. For me Alnico worth every gauss it have, as I always will wish that sweet sound, it is like a Tube vs Transistor issue, Alnico have the ''tube'' sound of speakers...
Regards
In and of itself for an open baffle and for "fullrange" use, the 165 is NOT ideal.
What it does have going for it is good linear decay, low Mms for its Sd, and relatively high eff. for its Sd and a usable (fairly extended) pass-band.
Lowther's and AER's are twin cone designs. AER's have the same problems as lowthers BUT are generally more eff. across their pass-band (..though note that lowthers in general don't exceed 94 db 1watt at 1 meter as an average eff.).
If you look over Troel's website (High Eff. section), you'll find a both the 215 RTF64 and the Lowther EX3 measured. The performance pretty much speaks for itself.
DIY Loudspeaker Projects
Is alnico worth the money? That isn't really the question that you should be asking, rather is the particular driver worth the money? In this instance is the 215-2000 (or the EXC version) better than the 165? Is it worth 5 times as much? That I don't know, but I can say that it's *highly* unlikely. That doesn't mean however that you might not find it to be worth the cost.
What it does have going for it is good linear decay, low Mms for its Sd, and relatively high eff. for its Sd and a usable (fairly extended) pass-band.
Lowther's and AER's are twin cone designs. AER's have the same problems as lowthers BUT are generally more eff. across their pass-band (..though note that lowthers in general don't exceed 94 db 1watt at 1 meter as an average eff.).
If you look over Troel's website (High Eff. section), you'll find a both the 215 RTF64 and the Lowther EX3 measured. The performance pretty much speaks for itself.
DIY Loudspeaker Projects
Is alnico worth the money? That isn't really the question that you should be asking, rather is the particular driver worth the money? In this instance is the 215-2000 (or the EXC version) better than the 165? Is it worth 5 times as much? That I don't know, but I can say that it's *highly* unlikely. That doesn't mean however that you might not find it to be worth the cost.
Here is an alnico "fullrange" driver that *might* be worth the money:
eBay 香港 : L.Cao full range speaker 8 inches pair alnico !! (物� 220446904282 ��時間 2009-10-13 17�時09分39秒)
(..note that the response shown has an eq. circuit.)
(..I'd still go with what I recommended at the beginning however.)
IMO a *better* solution with alnico would be the Seas X2-08 EXOTIC W8 in combination with an appropriate filter and the Seas X3-06 EXOTIC T35.. AND a "helper" woofer or two (..perhaps from Acoustic Elegance).
eBay 香港 : L.Cao full range speaker 8 inches pair alnico !! (物� 220446904282 ��時間 2009-10-13 17�時09分39秒)
(..note that the response shown has an eq. circuit.)
(..I'd still go with what I recommended at the beginning however.)
IMO a *better* solution with alnico would be the Seas X2-08 EXOTIC W8 in combination with an appropriate filter and the Seas X3-06 EXOTIC T35.. AND a "helper" woofer or two (..perhaps from Acoustic Elegance).
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Having read a few more threads and the Internet, I am leaning towards the 165 series, either the 165GMF, 165-2000 or 165-EXC. Each has a different magnet, respectively, ferrite, AlNiCo and Electro-magnet. The AlNiCo and the Electro are the same price.
Can those who have used electro magnet powered speakers comment on whether that would be a better choice or an AlNiCo in an open baffle application. In this case, I think that I would cross the speaker at 200 Hz or thereabouts and leave the lower registers to a suitable woofer. The 165 may or may not need a tweeter, so I am keeping that out of the equation at the moment.
Thanks again.
Can those who have used electro magnet powered speakers comment on whether that would be a better choice or an AlNiCo in an open baffle application. In this case, I think that I would cross the speaker at 200 Hz or thereabouts and leave the lower registers to a suitable woofer. The 165 may or may not need a tweeter, so I am keeping that out of the equation at the moment.
Thanks again.
The 165GMF is quite a bit "cleaner" than the others (with respect to linear distortion). It was also conceived and built well *after* the others. It also should cost less than half of what the others cost. Of the Supravox line - the 215RTF64 is also rather good, but because of the larger diameter it "beams" a bit more than the 165 series.
Again, the 165GMF (of these drivers) for this particular application. It's not Alnico, but..
Note however that much of the praise for Alnico from various drivers *usually* relates to freq.s in the mid-to-midbass region, say 500 Hz down to 60 Hz. So the 165GMF doesn't necessarily preclude the benefits of Alnico (or a field coil) for your application (..which could come from an Alnico driver).
As to the description.. between Alnico and Field Coil.. Again, it's really all about the particular driver, BUT:
Alnico, detailed yet soft and "airy" (sometimes slightly "whispy").
Field Coil - detailed yet more "dense", better texture. Can be "bright" or not depending on the strength of the motor (which depends on the voltage supply).
Both are usually more "harmonically saturated" than ferrite versions. Listen to the "clean sound sample" recordings for the Jensen brand guitar speakers. In particular use the 12" Blackbird (..at least when compared to their other drivers). BUT also compare that 12" to the "classic" 12" that ALSO has Alnico. It should give you a better idea that any particular sound has more to do with the *driver* (as a whole) rather than simply the magnet material.
JP12-100BB
There is a possible alternative solution from Fertin (the man) that utilizes a twin-cone structure WITH a field coil that allows you to alter the Qe (and Qts) of the driver (at the expense of eff..). It isn't terribly linear, BUT it doesn't seem to have treble "peaking" and significant resonance problems of most twin-cone drivers. Further the large phase plug should provide decent lower treble off-axis. Anyway, here it is: LB12EX
EMSPEAKER store
Again, the 165GMF (of these drivers) for this particular application. It's not Alnico, but..
Note however that much of the praise for Alnico from various drivers *usually* relates to freq.s in the mid-to-midbass region, say 500 Hz down to 60 Hz. So the 165GMF doesn't necessarily preclude the benefits of Alnico (or a field coil) for your application (..which could come from an Alnico driver).
As to the description.. between Alnico and Field Coil.. Again, it's really all about the particular driver, BUT:
Alnico, detailed yet soft and "airy" (sometimes slightly "whispy").
Field Coil - detailed yet more "dense", better texture. Can be "bright" or not depending on the strength of the motor (which depends on the voltage supply).
Both are usually more "harmonically saturated" than ferrite versions. Listen to the "clean sound sample" recordings for the Jensen brand guitar speakers. In particular use the 12" Blackbird (..at least when compared to their other drivers). BUT also compare that 12" to the "classic" 12" that ALSO has Alnico. It should give you a better idea that any particular sound has more to do with the *driver* (as a whole) rather than simply the magnet material.
JP12-100BB
There is a possible alternative solution from Fertin (the man) that utilizes a twin-cone structure WITH a field coil that allows you to alter the Qe (and Qts) of the driver (at the expense of eff..). It isn't terribly linear, BUT it doesn't seem to have treble "peaking" and significant resonance problems of most twin-cone drivers. Further the large phase plug should provide decent lower treble off-axis. Anyway, here it is: LB12EX
EMSPEAKER store
Maybe you could like a sucessful OB combo already tested by audiophiles and DIY hobbyst, the cost is low and it is a very good sound speakers.
They are the Eminence Alpha15A, 60dollars at Parts-Express.com:*Eminence Alpha-15A 15" Driver | alpha-15a 15" guitar speaker 15" keyboard speaker pa driver 200 watt driver
and the famous Visaton B200 135dollars at Welcome to E-Speakers.com - Very High End Loudspeaker Components
They use this two drivers with a 4.7mH foil inductor at Parts Express: Featured Categories for a 275--300Hz xover cut or they run fullrange(xoverless).
You can rise the inductor value and put two woofers per panel for more bass output.
They are the Eminence Alpha15A, 60dollars at Parts-Express.com:*Eminence Alpha-15A 15" Driver | alpha-15a 15" guitar speaker 15" keyboard speaker pa driver 200 watt driver
and the famous Visaton B200 135dollars at Welcome to E-Speakers.com - Very High End Loudspeaker Components
They use this two drivers with a 4.7mH foil inductor at Parts Express: Featured Categories for a 275--300Hz xover cut or they run fullrange(xoverless).
You can rise the inductor value and put two woofers per panel for more bass output.
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phy, for what I read the 12" is a lot better....
supravox have a OB version not listed on website
and better use the field coil ,the standard one, undervolt like 4V for ob ,you lose db but....
the 215 bic.signature is a winner ...drop me 10$ for the tricks
MJK have a nice two way ob project....
supravox have a OB version not listed on website
and better use the field coil ,the standard one, undervolt like 4V for ob ,you lose db but....the 215 bic.signature is a winner ...drop me 10$ for the tricks
MJK have a nice two way ob project....
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Email me for Open Baffle advice.
DF,
I am nearing the end of a three year comparative evaluation of various baffles and many, many full/wide range drivers. Maybe I can help you get to where you want to get without the heavy learning curve. Kind of a worm hole effect to get you to the other side without the years of hassle in between. chopper87@aol.com
Lance A.
DF,
I am nearing the end of a three year comparative evaluation of various baffles and many, many full/wide range drivers. Maybe I can help you get to where you want to get without the heavy learning curve. Kind of a worm hole effect to get you to the other side without the years of hassle in between. chopper87@aol.com
Lance A.
Here are some youtube films about PHY-HP and Musical Affairs who make speakers with PHY-HP units....
http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gh9n9v4bNhY
And http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1KpWkhGFlM
http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gh9n9v4bNhY
And http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1KpWkhGFlM
Have a look at these very interesting drivers from another very famous French manufactor:
ems_welcome
The LB6 or LB7, seems to be interesting competitors..
Regards, Thomas.
ems_welcome
The LB6 or LB7, seems to be interesting competitors..
Regards, Thomas.
Just following up on these, any more opinions? I am close to getting a 5" Supravox (not sure about magnet yet, Ferrite, AlNiCo or Electro), a Lowther A55 or A45 or a PHY-HP 8". I prefer a smaller 6" cone for the fastest impulse response, and will be mating it with a sub-woofer. Comments? Suggestions? Experiences?
Thanks!
Thanks!
The 5" in Supravox (135LB) doesn't look good to me. Substantial problems with linearity between 800 Hz and 2 kHz.
The 165 in the field coil (165 EXC) version specifically at 30 degrees off-axis isn't as "clean" as the 165 GMF, but has better overall freq. linearity and could well "sound" better than the the GMF version. It's also half the price of the 215 EXC, and a little less than double the 165 GMF.
This person seemed pleased with his 215 EXC purchase..
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/157446-looking-full-range-mid-open-baffle.html
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