OB: Dark Star Shootout - Betsy vs. B200

[badman]

My understanding is that the betsy and betsyk currently have basic extended straight poles. An undercut would go a mighty long way, I'd think. Heck though, the cone/whizzer design seems like "my style", so might have to snag some.

[planet10]

Originally Posted by mp9

The cast basket would be nice

A plastic basket would be nicer. And if the tooling is already paid for, cheaper.

dave

[pjanda1]

Plastic does pose many advantages, but I worry about longevity. I know that plastics can last a considerable length of time without getting brittle, but they must be designed with that in mind. The motor on the last Sony TC500 R2R I received broke loose in shipping as a result of the plastic housing elements becoming quite brittle with age. The Coral drivers steel baskets, fabric surrounds and decent adhesives seem to have stood the test of time: 40+ years and sounding excellent. I also worry about folks over-tightening the screws and cracking plastic. We are, as a group, prone to overzealousness.

Re: motors, the only reasonably priced Alnico option would not allow nearly as much Xmech as the current motors. That is a real problem for OB use, as I imagine a few users might become, dare I repeat it, overzealous. Bottoming out voice coils can get ugly. I think others are using a very similar motor in similar applications, but for now, I'll steer clear. If I can find a way to get alnico on them for a reasonable price, I'll strongly consider it. The Seas Exotica costs what it does for a reason.

The cast basket I referenced earlier is on its way to a magnetics designer. It could well be that we don't find anything with a strong enough price/performance ratio to continue with. If we do, you'll likely see it. Anything new will be a fair bit more expensive, so the sonic improvement will need to be substantial to justify its existence.

Do keep the suggestions coming. Though I'm very happy with the Betsy and the BetsyK, I'll always be open to ideas.

Paul

[rjbond3rd]

Originally Posted by mp9

really Won't mind if you sit this one out.

[rjbond3rd]

B200's are breaking in. Right off the bat, yowie, there is _lots_ of thump in the bass, and the stereo image is _extremely_ wide and detailed. The treble is a little "hard" though.

The room reflections are much more noticable with the B200 (I barely noticed them with Betsy). Betsy's treble is easy-going by comparison but beams more. The B200 is spraying out splashy "shimmers" everywhere on cymbals.

Unlike the Betsy, the B200 has no trouble with rock-and-roll (so far). B200's tom-toms have lots of weight (not fully real-life weight), and cymbals are incredibly "shimmery" but a bit too bright (we'll see). Strange to have so much bass and yet a bit too much treble -- that's a first for me.

So take your pick: affordable, easy-going but don't stress it out (Betsy), or for triple the money, a fullranger that can (almost?) do it all, with incredible imaging and detail, but it has a hard top end (I hope it relaxes, or I'll have to tame it by sitting off-axis).

Efficiency seems about the same but the drivers are really as different as can be in all other ways.

[pjanda1]

Good stuff!

I wonder if the B200 might, as others have measured, have a higher Qts. I suspect the bass between the two might be more similar if you add some series resistance to the Betsy. Of course, more bass may make her sound even tamer . . .

I was going to suggest this with the Betsy earlier, but if you are having room reflection issues (and even if you aren't) you might try crossing the drivers axis in front of you (over-toe some might call it). I know you had to play for awhile to get positioning just right. Mark the current location with masking tape before you move 'em! A side benefit is that the sweet spot gets wider, and more tolerable for additional listeners.

Finally, how about some pics of those baffles? I put unfinished cheapo plywood on my commercial site, so nothing is too ugly for us here!

Paul
Wild Burro Audio Labs - DIY Full Range Speakers

[rjbond3rd]

Hi Paul, I too read that B200's in the wild have a Q of about 1. Thank you for the good advice on the cork and positioning.

I ended up liking 45 degrees of toe-in, so they cross in front. I still hope the B200's high end calms down though. It's a bit shrill and piercing right now.

I will be psyched to post a picture (when I can get a camera) because my build looks _exactly_ like yours, down to the last detail (unfinished cabinet-grade ply). So I think you'll have a laugh at my literalism.

That's cool that you're a live musician. I tell people I'm a "recovering guitarist."

[Godzilla]

http://www.visaton.de/bilder/frequen.../b200_6_fs.gif

I have read others have used circuits to pad down the B200's response above 1khz which brings the B200 to about 90db per watt... The Betsy sounds louder than the Pioneer B20 (which sound best to me on axis) i have on hand and sound much bigger too. For sure, the Betsy needs break in time. They sound 'chalky' at first but smooth out in a couple days of steady playing. This morning i was greeted to some warm, smooth Betsy's... like a smooth cup of coffee. Betsy's can be tamed with toe in whereas the B200's look like they need a circuit. I can't wait to get mine on OBs and compare them to my BIBs!

Godzilla

[rjbond3rd]

Howdy Godzilla, I'm going to try some digital EQ (laptop as source playing WAV's). Are you going to use the Betsys in the "Betsy and Boomer" configuration?

[Godzilla]

>>> Are you going to use the Betsys in the "Betsy and Boomer" configuration?

Yes. I'm half done cutting up the baffles and expect to be done this weekend. Sometime next week i hope to have a pair of Betsy/Boomers in my listening room. The past few days i have my Betsy's playing non stop in sealed cabs (they took over for my B20s which will go back eventually). FYI, the Betsy/Boomer will look different than what you see on the website. I've simplified the plans so the speaker 'cabinet' doesn't angle back. I want to keep things simple as possible while maximizing performance!

Your listening impressions are much appreciated! Please let us know if you use a circuit on the B200s.

Godzilla