i don't own a full range pair... yet. and i only listen to electronica music. mainly drum and bass with fast drum beats and complex layers of melodies. i'm wondering if an entry level full-range would be a conflicting choice for this type of music or not. because i have a size restriction no bigger than the biggest bookshelf, only a modest amount of budget, and keep seeing the phrase 'muddle up' when reading about the diy projects that fit my requirements. naturally i will be keeping the volume knot only at modest levels. Am I going to hear a happy ending if i choose to go with a small full-range for my music preference?
When I saw this thread, I was thinking of a long "it depends" response where I would write about how enclosure type is at least as important to consider as driver type. But, it sounds like you're restricted to bookshelves.
Then the question becomes efficiency. If you have some watts to throw at them, pick a smaller driver with a decent sized Xmax, like the Jordan, CSS or Alpair or Tang Band. You might talk to Planet10 about a Fonken style enclosure, or you could use a simple reflex aligment. If you need higher efficiency, you'll need to trade extension for it by using a larger driver in a sealed box. Depending on your room size, the room gain can make a sealed enclosure with a high-ish F3 sound pretty flat. The other option is to use a line level high pass filter with a higher tuned vented box (easier than it sounds, a single capacitor will do). Unless you are listening at very low levels, I'd advise against using a small, low x-max driver in a vented box for electronica.
And finally, do they need to sit on a shelf? How about a small footprint floorstander? There are some ML-TL's floating around that could work well. Or, use one of the little, high excursion drivers in a BIB! The foot print would be tiny, but they need some vertical space. Or, do you have anyplace you can hide a subwoofer? If you don't need much extension from your fullrangers, it opens even more possibilities.
I am awfully sure that with a little thought, and some help from the forum, you can find a fullrange solution.
Paul
Wild Burro Audio Labs - DIY Full Range Speakers
Then the question becomes efficiency. If you have some watts to throw at them, pick a smaller driver with a decent sized Xmax, like the Jordan, CSS or Alpair or Tang Band. You might talk to Planet10 about a Fonken style enclosure, or you could use a simple reflex aligment. If you need higher efficiency, you'll need to trade extension for it by using a larger driver in a sealed box. Depending on your room size, the room gain can make a sealed enclosure with a high-ish F3 sound pretty flat. The other option is to use a line level high pass filter with a higher tuned vented box (easier than it sounds, a single capacitor will do). Unless you are listening at very low levels, I'd advise against using a small, low x-max driver in a vented box for electronica.
And finally, do they need to sit on a shelf? How about a small footprint floorstander? There are some ML-TL's floating around that could work well. Or, use one of the little, high excursion drivers in a BIB! The foot print would be tiny, but they need some vertical space. Or, do you have anyplace you can hide a subwoofer? If you don't need much extension from your fullrangers, it opens even more possibilities.
I am awfully sure that with a little thought, and some help from the forum, you can find a fullrange solution.
Paul
Wild Burro Audio Labs - DIY Full Range Speakers
As a huge fan of electronic music: a small full ranger will not satisfy you. You will not hear the bass drops, slides, or have any extension. A very large pair of fullrangers could... depending. A two way (even something like tysen) would go a long way in giving you the low frequency extension you're going to need.
fwiw i had Nirvana's Super10 in ~ 3 cubic foot reflex box - on Earthwork's mic demo disc, acoustic drums were very clear (partly due to riding on-axis response) but Earthwork's drum demo is unrealistic as only one drum/cymbal is hit at a time and spaced far apart instead of a groove or solo. More dense in time/complex material such as Dan Weiss's tintal drumset with electric guitar would probably fall apart quickly/ Going to hiphop and electronic bass - maybe some blh fullrange would do it (?) I've played with 15 and 18" Karlson couplers and do ok - >115dB ability at couch from one coupler on odaiko with ~1/8" p-p cone ,movement and 300 watts peak input. This of course was too loud for the average happenings in the track but the whack didn't sound "loud" - just quick & startling (and much less muddy than my k-horns) 10" woofer bookshelf systems will usually fall apart with heavy demands. IMO speakers which break up badly or compress will sound more irritating on than those which have less stain and modulation distortion. Even speakers with poor small signal LF extension like La Scala should sound pretty good on drums & bass. I've run Peavey FH1 with 511/paging drivers and tweeters for fake LS - FH1 has half-space LF rolloff of 12dB/octave below ~110Hz - this played pretty good rock and other stuff overall
You might get enough bass using Jordan JX92 in a ported box, but a bookshelf is going to be pushing it. IMO the full range driver is not the problem, the cabinet size and tuning options is. Then again my definition of only modest levels may be completely different to yours, also are you going to be sat near them or in a big room or what?
I listen to a bunch of electronic music.
I have 6-inch fostex fe167e based speakers in the Metronome cabinet, and have had 3-inch Tang-Bands in the Needle cabinet.
The 3-inchers ran out of excursion quickly. The 167 setup could do fairly deep bass tunefully, but it seemed slow and lacked impact. A sub helped tremendously in both cases. You needn't get really crazy with a sub, an 8-inch woofer and <100 watts is still enough to be a big help, depending on the output levels you need. But part of the key is rolling off the LF info to the FR speaker. I got a Reckhorn F-1 to do that for me, but there are other ways.
I do like the FR for electronic music, though. For synthetic waveforms with extensive overtone structures - square waves and other crunchy sounds - they do a good job of keeping things in line and coherent, and can sound fast and powerful in that respect.
I have 6-inch fostex fe167e based speakers in the Metronome cabinet, and have had 3-inch Tang-Bands in the Needle cabinet.
The 3-inchers ran out of excursion quickly. The 167 setup could do fairly deep bass tunefully, but it seemed slow and lacked impact. A sub helped tremendously in both cases. You needn't get really crazy with a sub, an 8-inch woofer and <100 watts is still enough to be a big help, depending on the output levels you need. But part of the key is rolling off the LF info to the FR speaker. I got a Reckhorn F-1 to do that for me, but there are other ways.
I do like the FR for electronic music, though. For synthetic waveforms with extensive overtone structures - square waves and other crunchy sounds - they do a good job of keeping things in line and coherent, and can sound fast and powerful in that respect.
Naaah! Beyond the sound of sinths , which is generally spread in the "mid" spectrum , and is reproduced fairly well by FR , the nearly infrasonic tail of bass and the shouty hi-hats often need to be played loud ,the first can be done by a sub , but the latter needs a specific driver ,id est a tweeter , and they easily blow ...
I listen to D&B and Dance with the FE207 in the Changs no problem, not earth shattering bass, but makes up with speed and coherence. When I had a FE166 BLH couldn't realy listen to same genre, sounded too thin. So I would second the view that size and cabinet do matter, though havn't tried a FR with a sub yet.
The problem with trying to do strong low bass with a single driver speaker is that the low bass causes Doppler distortion in the upper bass where the "snap" is, kick drum slap, etc. Taking the bottom two octaves off of the full-ranger fixes this and does wonderful things for dynamic headroom.
Bob
Bob
I play lot's of electronic music myself amongst other genres.
I have found electronic music and hip-hop, electro, etc etc sounds best (most enjoyable and convincing)on systems with powerfull deep bass and clear highs without getting shrill or compressed or smeared at complex passages. Big cone area helps here. Typical the things things the most fullrange systems are lacking off. My system started out as fullrange but ended up as a four way systems with dual 15" bass, 12" low-midrange, 8" mid and air motion transformer highs just because I aso want to listen and enjoy these genres of music (actually I want to be able to listen to everything I throw at my system)
I still have a smaller fullrange system like a lot of systems shown here on this forum. It sounds pretty good on acoustic music but sounds very tiny, compressed and lacks the 'sensation' when I play electronic music or some nice dub-reggea for instance. The big systems sound a lot better on other genres too. In other words, for this kind of music, something like a 6.5 inch fostex driver in nomatter what kind of enclosure isn't going to cut the deal for me. It would be very helpfull if more people just tell what kind of music they listen to on their system. I read a lot of very good reviews on different kind of loudspeakers but when I find out the builder only listens to Diana Krall or girl with guitar music I hook off, not my cup of tea
I have found electronic music and hip-hop, electro, etc etc sounds best (most enjoyable and convincing)on systems with powerfull deep bass and clear highs without getting shrill or compressed or smeared at complex passages. Big cone area helps here. Typical the things things the most fullrange systems are lacking off. My system started out as fullrange but ended up as a four way systems with dual 15" bass, 12" low-midrange, 8" mid and air motion transformer highs just because I aso want to listen and enjoy these genres of music (actually I want to be able to listen to everything I throw at my system)
I still have a smaller fullrange system like a lot of systems shown here on this forum. It sounds pretty good on acoustic music but sounds very tiny, compressed and lacks the 'sensation' when I play electronic music or some nice dub-reggea for instance. The big systems sound a lot better on other genres too. In other words, for this kind of music, something like a 6.5 inch fostex driver in nomatter what kind of enclosure isn't going to cut the deal for me. It would be very helpfull if more people just tell what kind of music they listen to on their system. I read a lot of very good reviews on different kind of loudspeakers but when I find out the builder only listens to Diana Krall or girl with guitar music I hook off, not my cup of tea
Sjef,
This is not news. A 4" wide-range driver is not going to do acid rock at concert levels. If you want chest thumping bass, you need at least a pair of 12"s or bigger dedicated to bass. Those of us who like single driver speakers actually like Diana Krall, et al. If you want loud, in-you-face speakers, you are on the wrong forum
Bob
This is not news. A 4" wide-range driver is not going to do acid rock at concert levels. If you want chest thumping bass, you need at least a pair of 12"s or bigger dedicated to bass. Those of us who like single driver speakers actually like Diana Krall, et al. If you want loud, in-you-face speakers, you are on the wrong forum
Bob
I have to agree with Bob..I also own the super8 cast nirvanas...2 in a cab, one facing front and one directly behind it (di/bi pole...forget which one it is). They work great for jazz, vocal, rock, classical...but d&B...forget it. My sub does the rest, and filtering the FR makes it focus more on the mids.
So would a pair of 12 inch woofers and a pair of Fostex FF85WK make a great FAST combination? (all kinds of music and movies)
Actually, my experience with my 18" H-frames is leading me in this direction. The H-frames put some serious meat and potatoes into heavier rock, but are useless for movies since they crap out ~30Hz. Any decent 12" in a sealed box aught to get well into the 20's with room lift and a bit of boost. At the same time, a good 12" should be able to get up to 500, so an XO at the baffle step should be possible. I don't know if a single 12" would be enough for a head-banger, but it sure would satisfy my urge for organ music.
(I guess I will have to get a pair of FF85WK's. Got to hear them. I do like the A7.3, though.)
Bob
Bob, why not get some 12" or 15" wide range drivers on some big open baffles and enjoy!
Just kidding, I know you don't want that kind of setup... but my setup does rock really well without any excuses. It also does Diana Krall, Eva Cassidy, Holly Cole, Tierney Sutton and a bunch others really well too!
Just kidding, I know you don't want that kind of setup... but my setup does rock really well without any excuses. It also does Diana Krall, Eva Cassidy, Holly Cole, Tierney Sutton and a bunch others really well too!
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