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Both of these drivers interest me for small table-top speaker. They have different strengths, they are not the same drivers by any means. I understand some of the key differences such as Xmax, impedance. But that's as far as it goes.
I'm not expecting to play Rock Music. I value clean fresh and non-harsh top end with as much bass as might be reasonable to expect from a small driver (EQ is an option).
My priorities may be different than yours so don't be limited by my values... I'd like to hear your opinion on the relative merits of these two ?
In case it is of help, here are the relevant manufacturers data sheets.
http://www.markaudio.com/alpair/5/grey
http://www.fostexinternational.com/docs/speaker_comp/pdf/ff85k.pdf
I'm not expecting to play Rock Music. I value clean fresh and non-harsh top end with as much bass as might be reasonable to expect from a small driver (EQ is an option).
My priorities may be different than yours so don't be limited by my values... I'd like to hear your opinion on the relative merits of these two ?
In case it is of help, here are the relevant manufacturers data sheets.
http://www.markaudio.com/alpair/5/grey
http://www.fostexinternational.com/docs/speaker_comp/pdf/ff85k.pdf
Hi Bigun,
Yasushi Matsumoto San has done much work on small applications using the Alpair 5 and other drivers. You may find this site very useful:
http://lean-audio.blogspot.com/2009/04/report-of-alpair5-aplication.html
Cheers,
Mark.
Yasushi Matsumoto San has done much work on small applications using the Alpair 5 and other drivers. You may find this site very useful:
http://lean-audio.blogspot.com/2009/04/report-of-alpair5-aplication.html
Cheers,
Mark.
Yikes,
Having used both, I think this is one of those situations were application and personal taste become very significant.
Both can sound great, but if by small table top speaker, you mean with iPod/ computer etc. as source, and using digital eq and small chip or class T amp, I'd suggest the Alpair
Having used both, I think this is one of those situations were application and personal taste become very significant.
Both can sound great, but if by small table top speaker, you mean with iPod/ computer etc. as source, and using digital eq and small chip or class T amp, I'd suggest the Alpair
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Provided that you're considering a single driver per enclosure, I'd venture a guess that any amplifier design of Nelson's would have no trouble with the load provided by either of these.
My impressions to date on the sonic differences between the Fostex (FF & FE series) and Mark Audio drivers would be that the former have very distinctive personalities in terms of FR and dynamics (vivid is the first buzzword that comes to mind), which can cause some interesting or even fatiguing results with certain combinations of gear, while the latter, even including the new EL70 paper cone, are much more neutral.
I'll be honest and state that after several very uncomfortable experiences to metal cone and domed drivers* over a period of years, I approached my first listen to Mark Audio drivers with trepidation.
*The two most "unlistenable" for me (in the sense of fatigue) of these were the Bottlehead Straight 8 (even when driven by one of my favorite class of amps - 2A3 SE), and a pair of possibly damaged Jordan JX92 driven by very grainy and "gnashy" sounding chip amp and computer source.
The little A5s came as a very pleasant surprise indeed, but my taste is what it is, and for a small near field, full-range monitor, I'd be inclined more towards the FF85K, EL70, and CHR70 in that order.
I certainly agree with Gregg's observation, where the Alpair5 can really shine is as a wide-band mid/tweeter. I've heard a very nice sounding 2-way of his, using Silver Flute woofer, and an XO with details best for him to elaborate.
If anyone is interested in the thread, he latest incarnation of them here, crossed at ~1KHz:
http://geek.scorpiorising.ca/GeeK_ZonE/index.php?topic=3769.msg46920#msg46920
The XO here:
http://geek.scorpiorising.ca/GeeK_ZonE/index.php?topic=3769.msg42907#msg42907
(those original oiled pine boxes are stupidly great with a 600Hz XO (schematic values not shown for 600))
Cheers!
Hi ChrisB, guys,
I had similar ideas and run with ChrisB's comments. My original thinking on the Alpair 5 was to make it operate to within most sub-woofer upper frequencies. This combination worked well. I also paired the Alp5 with the Alp10 base unit, Bob's SDX7 and a few other woofers with excellent results.
It was something of a surprise when so many people started to use it full range. The driver is much favoured in Japan for this purpose. I'm currently trying out one of Iijima San's designs (see pic). I like it very much but had to tame the top end since my taste is Jass and female vocal. I'm feeding most of my general listening through I Tunes on my Mac-Mini. It's equaliser makes easy work of any adjustments.
Very interesting how things turn out.
Cheers
Mark.
I had similar ideas and run with ChrisB's comments. My original thinking on the Alpair 5 was to make it operate to within most sub-woofer upper frequencies. This combination worked well. I also paired the Alp5 with the Alp10 base unit, Bob's SDX7 and a few other woofers with excellent results.
It was something of a surprise when so many people started to use it full range. The driver is much favoured in Japan for this purpose. I'm currently trying out one of Iijima San's designs (see pic). I like it very much but had to tame the top end since my taste is Jass and female vocal. I'm feeding most of my general listening through I Tunes on my Mac-Mini. It's equaliser makes easy work of any adjustments.
Very interesting how things turn out.
Cheers
Mark.
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Scottmoose just got the uFonken we sent him (Mark has a pair of ours too)... i posted his comments in my blog http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/blog.php?b=26
He compares it a bit with A6.
dave
He compares it a bit with A6.
dave
With the caveat of extremely broad terms of reference, given that the 85 & A6 have radically different design goals, and are not exactly comparable in size.
Taken as a micro-monitor, the uFonkens are very good indeed; they control the 85s displacement well, & throw out a lot of sound for such small boxes. Very nice. The drivers inherently have an upward tilted balance, like most of the Fostex range, so they're not as neutral as the MA units, nor do they have as much travel. If, like me, you don't like the HF lift, I suggest listening about 15 degrees off-axis, and the use of a high-inductance speaker cable if you have an amplifier that is likely to respond to a tweak of that kind (i.e. something with a moderate - low output impedance), which helps tame the top end a lot. If you want a compact monitor & you like the Fostex sound, these little boxes are highly recommended.
Taken as a micro-monitor, the uFonkens are very good indeed; they control the 85s displacement well, & throw out a lot of sound for such small boxes. Very nice. The drivers inherently have an upward tilted balance, like most of the Fostex range, so they're not as neutral as the MA units, nor do they have as much travel. If, like me, you don't like the HF lift, I suggest listening about 15 degrees off-axis, and the use of a high-inductance speaker cable if you have an amplifier that is likely to respond to a tweak of that kind (i.e. something with a moderate - low output impedance), which helps tame the top end a lot. If you want a compact monitor & you like the Fostex sound, these little boxes are highly recommended.
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Thanks guys, this very helpful.
Those uFonken boxes look like the first thing I should consider.
Which reminds me, I consider the A5 one very good looking driver - not an inconsiderable factor
It appears as if I can't go wrong whichever driver I choose, which is good to know and it will probably boil-down to the EQ excursion limits of the Fostex - I will have to model this. Does the Fostex really have a 0.5mm limit ?
And if I can throw out a curve ball for my edification.... if I assume that the 4 Ohm load of the A5 is acceptable it opens up the option for the el-cheapo Hi-Vi B3S any comments on it's perfomance ???
Those uFonken boxes look like the first thing I should consider.
Which reminds me, I consider the A5 one very good looking driver - not an inconsiderable factor
It appears as if I can't go wrong whichever driver I choose, which is good to know and it will probably boil-down to the EQ excursion limits of the Fostex - I will have to model this. Does the Fostex really have a 0.5mm limit ?
And if I can throw out a curve ball for my edification.... if I assume that the 4 Ohm load of the A5 is acceptable it opens up the option for the el-cheapo Hi-Vi B3S any comments on it's perfomance ???
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Forget it, just read Zaph Audio opinion on the Hi-Vi...
"Below 130hz, bass turns to thick mud."
However, the FR88-EX looks interesting...
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The HV isn't all that bad, but you can get better; the A5 or 85K flatten it.
[rant]
Adopting his own rather blunt prose-style, I'm afraid that Zaph has recently dropped in my estimation, following his practice of reviewing drivers while beavering away on his own, rival unit (hardly good form), which itself doesn't look too clever.
I mean look at it. It's got many of the faults he picks up on in other units, but I don't see many critical assessments here. So I'll provide some. A 65Hz Fs = not much to write home about in a mid-bass of that size, and is itself within a +/-10Hz tolerance, making for a potential 20Hz deviation between channels in a 2 way. Either that's rubbish engineering tolerances (although sadly not uncommon in units built down to a price) or rubbish QC. Either way, it's not acceptable IMNSHO. For the rest, the phase-plug's pointless as far as I can see for the intended use up to 2 - 3KHz, and that huge roll-surround + frame thickness is likely to make the off-axis response 'interesting.' If the cone's what I think it is, it's not one of the more distinguished ones out there, I'm really not sold on the frame design, and having tinsel leads attached to either side of the VC former is not exactly uncommon practice... Not impressed. Even for a 'budget' driver (that's it Scott, nice & subtle...)
[/rant over]
Sorry about that.
[rant]
Adopting his own rather blunt prose-style, I'm afraid that Zaph has recently dropped in my estimation, following his practice of reviewing drivers while beavering away on his own, rival unit (hardly good form), which itself doesn't look too clever.
I mean look at it. It's got many of the faults he picks up on in other units, but I don't see many critical assessments here. So I'll provide some. A 65Hz Fs = not much to write home about in a mid-bass of that size, and is itself within a +/-10Hz tolerance, making for a potential 20Hz deviation between channels in a 2 way. Either that's rubbish engineering tolerances (although sadly not uncommon in units built down to a price) or rubbish QC. Either way, it's not acceptable IMNSHO. For the rest, the phase-plug's pointless as far as I can see for the intended use up to 2 - 3KHz, and that huge roll-surround + frame thickness is likely to make the off-axis response 'interesting.' If the cone's what I think it is, it's not one of the more distinguished ones out there, I'm really not sold on the frame design, and having tinsel leads attached to either side of the VC former is not exactly uncommon practice... Not impressed. Even for a 'budget' driver (that's it Scott, nice & subtle...)
[/rant over]
Sorry about that.
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Well, bass is important and these little drivers, Hi-Vi or Fostex or A5 usually struggle the most at the low end and I want to use them for a desktop application without a sub.
Whether Zaph is being objective or not, it's always good to get input from more than one source. But there's not much out there. I did find this:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showpost.php?p=808431&postcount=7
"Once the music became more complicated they started sounding muddy"
All of the positive comments I've found are for speakers crossed-over at above 100Hz. If there were some positive reports of at lower frequencies I would be much more encourages - the 'price is right' as they say.
In the meantime, I'm quite interested in the FR-88K-EX, they are less expensive than the Fostex and A5, they offer higher nominal impedance (the 4 Ohm of the A5 is a pita for my simple Class A aspirations) with much better Xmax than the Fostex and with comparable sensitivity etc. All in all, the specifications make the FR-88K-EX look like a very good choice - BUT there doesn't seem to be very much 'history' about this driver, no reports on sound quality
Whether Zaph is being objective or not, it's always good to get input from more than one source. But there's not much out there. I did find this:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showpost.php?p=808431&postcount=7
"Once the music became more complicated they started sounding muddy"
All of the positive comments I've found are for speakers crossed-over at above 100Hz. If there were some positive reports of at lower frequencies I would be much more encourages - the 'price is right' as they say.
In the meantime, I'm quite interested in the FR-88K-EX, they are less expensive than the Fostex and A5, they offer higher nominal impedance (the 4 Ohm of the A5 is a pita for my simple Class A aspirations) with much better Xmax than the Fostex and with comparable sensitivity etc. All in all, the specifications make the FR-88K-EX look like a very good choice - BUT there doesn't seem to be very much 'history' about this driver, no reports on sound quality
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As it happens, I agree with Zaph regarding the HV driver; it's just that I no longer care what his views are.
Anyway, the simple fact of the matter is that you cannot obtain high-quality, extended bass output with reasonable dynamic headroom from a tiny FR unit suited to low power class A amplification in a tiny cabinet. You're just going to have to accept that. People don't cross to a sub or subs at ~100Hz with speakers like this for jollies; they do it because they have to if they require meaningful LF output.
If you won't / can't do that, then about the closest you're likely to get to reasonable LF from a small FR driver in a compact box is an Alpair 6, or if you must stick with the tiny units, you'll need a much larger box (horn). Can't speak for the FR-88's sonics -haven't heard it; you might have to try some German forums for views on that. On the up-side, given the price, it's not much of a risk, although personally, I'd stick with what are known to work extremely well (A5 & 85).
Anyway, the simple fact of the matter is that you cannot obtain high-quality, extended bass output with reasonable dynamic headroom from a tiny FR unit suited to low power class A amplification in a tiny cabinet. You're just going to have to accept that. People don't cross to a sub or subs at ~100Hz with speakers like this for jollies; they do it because they have to if they require meaningful LF output.
If you won't / can't do that, then about the closest you're likely to get to reasonable LF from a small FR driver in a compact box is an Alpair 6, or if you must stick with the tiny units, you'll need a much larger box (horn). Can't speak for the FR-88's sonics -haven't heard it; you might have to try some German forums for views on that. On the up-side, given the price, it's not much of a risk, although personally, I'd stick with what are known to work extremely well (A5 & 85).
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