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Old 28th October 2009, 07:35 PM   #121
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FredT... WOW! I was amazed at the speakers in those pics. You are very fortunate to have heard so many of these designs. From inexpensive wide range Foster drivers to Jordan's and everything in between. Even the humble Pioneer B20 was in there... Pi... Klipsch! Very cool!

Hope you enjoy the TB 8"... it looks really great to me on paper and in the pics.

Godzilla
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Old 7th November 2009, 10:44 PM   #122
FredT is offline FredT  United States
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I finished the enclosure construction this morning, installed Bob's proprietary compensation network, installed the drivers, and placed them in the system. My first impression is very positive except for a lack of high frequencies. This afternoon I substituted a different value for one of the inductors in the filter and that problem was solved. Now I need to listen for a few days with several different type amps to decide whether I can rekindle my love affair with single drivers.

Speakers - FredT300B's Photos
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Old 8th November 2009, 03:59 AM   #123
mp9 is offline mp9  United States
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have or will you try them without the network?
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Old 8th November 2009, 11:32 AM   #124
FredT is offline FredT  United States
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Originally Posted by mp9 View Post
have or will you try them without the network?
Yes, I installed bi-wire speaker terminals with the network connected between the lower and upper positive terminals, so the network is in the circuit through the lower terminals and bypassed through the upper ones. This way, if I decide to use dsp equalization I won't have to rewire the speakers.

With the network in place I found the bass is more prominent (inductor and resistor in parallel), but the upper treble is too attenuated (the network includes another small inductor in series with the bsc filter). Reducing the value of the second inductor brought the treble back, but I need to give them some breakin time and then experiment with different values. Bob also suggested I might want to substitute a zobel instead of the second inductor.

To answer your question directly, without the network they have that familiar single driver characteristic - relatively weak bass and prominent highs.

I'm driving them with class D monoblocks, and I expect that without the network the bass will be more pronounced and the treble less bright with my SET monoblocks, which I'll try later.
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Old 8th November 2009, 12:33 PM   #125
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Hi FredT, are you familiar with a bypass capacitor? It "undoes" the BSC's cut above a certain frequency depending on the value of the cap. I goes alongside the resistor and coil (so three parallel elements in series with the driver's +. It's easy to try anyway.
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Old 8th November 2009, 01:36 PM   #126
FredT is offline FredT  United States
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Originally Posted by rjbond3rd View Post
Hi FredT, are you familiar with a bypass capacitor? It "undoes" the BSC's cut above a certain frequency depending on the value of the cap. I goes alongside the resistor and coil (so three parallel elements in series with the driver's +. It's easy to try anyway.
Yes, but that's not what's needed in this application. The series resistor attenuates the signal by about 3-4dB across the sound spectrum. The inductor provides a short circuit for only the lows below 500hz or so. A bypass cap would "undo" the attenuation of the highs, but the typical full range driver's output increases with frequency above 1khz, so adding top end would be counterproductive.

Bob told me it's ok to let the cat out of the bag about his compensation network, so here it is: A 4mH inductor in parallel with a 12 ohm resistor (I used a 10 ohm), with those components followed by a series 0.5mH inductor to roll off the highs. Bob modeled this combination but hasn't heard it since he uses DSP compensation in his speakers. I found the 0.5mH inductor's value was waaaaay to high and tried a 0.33, then a 0.24, followed by a 0.15mH. The 0.15 seems to be about right, but even that value shaves off some brush-on-ride-cymbal sounds. For example, that sound in the first few measures of Patricia Barber's "Let it Rain" from "Modern Cool" is better with no series inductor at all. I'm now listening to the speakers with a zobel consisting of a 6.8uf and a 10 ohm, which Bob suggested I try instead. That seems to be the best solution.

I hope in all this discussion I'm not biasing anybody in either direction about these TB drivers. Don't forget these are FR drivers, and they are about four hours out of the shipping box - much too early to form an opinion! I also haven't experimented yet with different amps and with speaker placement and toe-in. I'm providing this info only because others have asked about my first impressions, and also because I find this kind of ongoing discussion interesting when somebody else is first hearing a new design.
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Old 8th November 2009, 01:50 PM   #127
FredT is offline FredT  United States
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Forgot to mention, if anybody will be in the Houston area next Saturday, I'm hosting the Houston Audio Society's monthly meeting at my house. The meeting topic is a comparison of several different types of speakers, and all are invited to join us. I'll post directions here: houstonaudio : Houston Audio Society

We'll listen to the same tracks on each of these speakers: 1) Maggie MMG's, 2) a Jim Griffin design bipole MLTL using CSS drivers, 3) my Art Array line arrays, 4) The Brines Acoustics TT-2000's which are the topic of this thread, and 5) a typical "high end" design, the Selah Audio Texas Revelator Towers, a 2.5-way using Scan Speak Revelator 7" woofers with the Revelator Air Circ tweeter. Each of the above, with the exception of the Selah design, cost about $400 to $600 including the cost of the enclosures. The Selah's were about $1,800 with veneered enclosures.

The purpose isn't to impress any of our members whose systems are typically in the $25K to $250K price range, but to hear the HUGE differences in the sonic characteristics of these similarly priced, but very different designs.
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Old 8th November 2009, 01:51 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by FredT View Post
...so adding top end would be counterproductive. ....but even that value shaves off some brush-on-ride-cymbal sounds.
Sorry to be dense, and I'm not nearly as knowledgeable as I can tell you are about these things, but but wouldn't the bypass cap (of a sufficiently high value) put the brush-on-ride-cymbal sounds back in? I'm a fumbler and a noob at these things, but I had the same issue with FE207E and FE208-Sigma in Bob's cabinets and the bypass cap was a lifesaver.
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Old 8th November 2009, 01:57 PM   #129
MJK is offline MJK  United States
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Originally Posted by rjbond3rd View Post
but wouldn't the bypass cap (of a sufficiently high value) put the brush-on-ride-cymbal sounds back in?
Yes, you are correct. I have used a by-pass cap many times and it brings back the very top end.
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Old 8th November 2009, 01:58 PM   #130
FredT is offline FredT  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjbond3rd View Post
Sorry to be dense, and I'm not nearly as knowledgeable as I can tell you are about these things, but but wouldn't the bypass cap (of a sufficiently high value) put the brush-on-ride-cymbal sounds back in? I'm a fumbler and a noob at these things, but I had the same issue with FE207E and FE208-Sigma in Bob's cabinets and the bypass cap was a lifesaver.
That wasn't a "dense" post at all. Yes the cap would let the highs back in, but the current filter design uses an inductor to take it out. I'm finding the best solution with these drivers seems to be either no series inductor, which might be a touch bright with poorly recorded music, or the zobel, which shaves just a touch of brightness off. For now I plan to stay with the bsc filter plus the zobel, and re-evaluate it after these speakers have about 100 hours playing time.
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