Hi. This is my first post so go easy. I've just gotten a good deal on an NAD7175PE receiver (75W RMS SS amp) that I need speakers for. I'm attracted to full-range configurations for cost and performance but I could use some help making a driver selection and to make sure I'm not doing something stupid.
Details of the listening space:
-Living room
-About 20ftish by 25ftish
-Listening position is about 15 ft back from short wall.
-Speaker locations in corners facing listening position
-8 ft ceiling
-Hardwood floors
Looking to spend < $300 on drivers and enclosure materials, all DIY
I really like the horn designs using the FE126e in terms of cost, size, appearance, and reviews. However, I'm concerned that the amp (75W RMS) i too big for those drivers.
The Chilli Chang uses a higher watt driver but costs more and I'm afraid I'll loose top end capability.
Maybe I just need to build/buy a different amp or consider different speaker options.
Any thoughts or advice are greatly appreciated.
Details of the listening space:
-Living room
-About 20ftish by 25ftish
-Listening position is about 15 ft back from short wall.
-Speaker locations in corners facing listening position
-8 ft ceiling
-Hardwood floors
Looking to spend < $300 on drivers and enclosure materials, all DIY
I really like the horn designs using the FE126e in terms of cost, size, appearance, and reviews. However, I'm concerned that the amp (75W RMS) i too big for those drivers.
The Chilli Chang uses a higher watt driver but costs more and I'm afraid I'll loose top end capability.
Maybe I just need to build/buy a different amp or consider different speaker options.
Any thoughts or advice are greatly appreciated.
The high power itself is not a problem. You can use the amplifier at low power, just be carefull with the volume knob.
Most often, however, the performance of the regular push-pull amplifiers is not the best at low levels. In contrast, single-ended amplifiers deliver less power, but the low-level performance is excellent.
With FE-126E used in properly designed BL horn a sensitivity of about 95-96dB/W/m can be achieved. You can reach a normal listening level with only few Watts. That's why my advice is to look for a good SE amplifier (tube or solid state - depends of your taste).
Just to expand slightly on the above, don't worry about the maximum rated output of your amplifier; that's just the maximum. You only use what you need, and your NAD will be ticking over; the FE126E has a sensitivity of about 93dB, 1m/1w rather more than most commercial hi-fi speakers, above all in a similar price range. It's quite a sturdy little unit too -you aren't likely to fry one accidentally.
On the whole, I'd probably be inclined to change the amp in the long run, but it'll do to be going on with. As for a cabinet, if it's the 126 you want, in a room that size, I'd probably be inclined toward the Saburo double-horn. OK, I might be regarded as biased, given that I designed it, but in all honesty, it's the best I've heard that driver.
On the whole, I'd probably be inclined to change the amp in the long run, but it'll do to be going on with. As for a cabinet, if it's the 126 you want, in a room that size, I'd probably be inclined toward the Saburo double-horn. OK, I might be regarded as biased, given that I designed it, but in all honesty, it's the best I've heard that driver.
Power quantity should not be an issue... quality at the low power levels you would typically use with FE126e would be an issue as well as the low output impedance typical of these SS amps.
Something that might be of interst, and applicable would be the unreleased Maeshowe horn. This is suitable for the FE126e, Mark Audio CHR-70, and CSS EL70 (or any of my EnABLed versions of these drivers). You could start out with CHR-70 which would be much happier with your amplifier, and then switch to FE126e if/when you get a lower power amplifier that would be happier with FE126e.
dave
Something that might be of interst, and applicable would be the unreleased Maeshowe horn. This is suitable for the FE126e, Mark Audio CHR-70, and CSS EL70 (or any of my EnABLed versions of these drivers). You could start out with CHR-70 which would be much happier with your amplifier, and then switch to FE126e if/when you get a lower power amplifier that would be happier with FE126e.
dave
or built? ... Scott?
too many designs, not enough time
To add another voice to the comments regarding amplifier power levels:
1) it is possible to blow either the FE126E or FE127E with far less than 75W (a defective amp or doing something silly with hot-jacking inputs is all it really takes), and probably far easier to do damage with a clipping low power (20W) solid state unit than tubed power of half that level. (guess how we know that?)
2) When used in a typical "BLH / BVR" etc (whether commercial or DIY), the FE126E can play plenty loud enough for most domestic environments ( i.e. less than say 600sq ft room) with as little as 20 watts, to as much power as you can muster. As best as I can recall, I've never heard them with anything bigger more than 30 watts, but for my tastes/listening levels (average well under 90dB SPL at 3 meters or less), they've sounded best on SETs of between 3.5 - 8watts. there's magic to be had there
Regarding enclosure style, your room and listening position would certainly appear to support and benefit from any of the larger, double mouth designs penned by Scott Lindgren - a more important question might be the degree of "domestic acceptance" to be included in your calculus. Some of these designs are well over 60" tall, and regardless of the quality of finishing, their size and placement requirements for optimal performance tend to dominate the visual landscape of the room.
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If you are happy with your SS amp, I would not bother changing to a tube amp. I have been using 200 watt SS amps and full range drivers for years without any isues. Recently I picked up a tube amp because that is what everybody else in the full range community seems to use and I wanted to give a tube amp a try. My intgrated tube amp is EL84 based, 15 watts per channel, has tube rectification, and point to point wiring. It is from a well regarded manufacturer. When I substituted it into my two channel system my 17 year old son almost immediately asked "What happened to the bass?" The amp has a really nice mid range but lacks any decent deep bass output. The performance of my solid state system kills it. I am not a tube amp convert, I do not believe that any tube amp will automatically outperform a SS system.
I would invest any extra money into speakers and keep the electronics you currently are using, assuming you are happy with them. You will get more bang for the buck from upgrading speakers. You might consider an OB system since it is simple and your room is a nice size for OB. Consider the following design or some varient.
http://www.quarter-wave.com/OBs/OB_Design.pdf
You can swap the full range driver to something similar, I have modeled the Alpair 6 and CHR-70 and they also works well. As long as the full range driver has an efficieny between 88 and 90 dB (you can [ad down a higher efficiency driver) it will work with some small adjustments to the crossover. Deep powerful bass crossed over low, simple construction, that full range sound, and it meets your budget.
I would invest any extra money into speakers and keep the electronics you currently are using, assuming you are happy with them. You will get more bang for the buck from upgrading speakers. You might consider an OB system since it is simple and your room is a nice size for OB. Consider the following design or some varient.
http://www.quarter-wave.com/OBs/OB_Design.pdf
You can swap the full range driver to something similar, I have modeled the Alpair 6 and CHR-70 and they also works well. As long as the full range driver has an efficieny between 88 and 90 dB (you can [ad down a higher efficiency driver) it will work with some small adjustments to the crossover. Deep powerful bass crossed over low, simple construction, that full range sound, and it meets your budget.
What amp is it Martin?
Certainly a lot of vintage tube amps, or new amps trying to mimic vintage ampos will have sloppy bass, but we have yet to find a SS amp that has the bottom of our Class A EL84 El Cheapo variant (within its limited power range) and being able to regularily borrow many from the local dealer it is not for lack of trying.
dave
Wow thanks everyone for the great replies! You've all reinforced what I thought to be true about the amp situation: just have to keep the volume knob turned low and deal with any hit in sound quality that results.
In time I'll most definitely buy or build a SE tube amp, just out of curiosity if nothing else, but for now I'm going to stick with the NAD and focus my time and effort on deciding which of these full-range speaker designs I want to pursue.
My wife is pretty open in terms of design size & style. I've showed her a few of the TL, BLH, and dual-horn designs and she's responded favorably so far.
Dave, that Maeshowe certainly looks easier to build than the Saburo. How important is the curved horn mouth for performance? Any comments on how they compare sonically? I'll hit the search button and start digging on my own but any comments you have on the performance differences are welcome.
hm, I've never seen those three designs. They're all dual driver configs right? I'm not sure I want to go that rout, simply for cost.
I'll definitely put more time into researching these options. Hopefully sometime in the next 5 to 10 years I'll be done wading through all the available information and actually be ready to build a speaker
Thanks again everybody for the great info. There's clearly an awesome group of intelligent people here. I've barely scratched the surface and my gear to date is pretty lame (best audio gear I own right now is a pair of Beyerdynamic DT770 headphones and a decent SS headphone amp) but I'm excited to start taking it up a notch. unfortunately for my wallet, relationship, and free time I see the potential for a bad addiction to hi-fi in my future.
In time I'll most definitely buy or build a SE tube amp, just out of curiosity if nothing else, but for now I'm going to stick with the NAD and focus my time and effort on deciding which of these full-range speaker designs I want to pursue.
My wife is pretty open in terms of design size & style. I've showed her a few of the TL, BLH, and dual-horn designs and she's responded favorably so far.
Dave, that Maeshowe certainly looks easier to build than the Saburo. How important is the curved horn mouth for performance? Any comments on how they compare sonically? I'll hit the search button and start digging on my own but any comments you have on the performance differences are welcome.
hm, I've never seen those three designs. They're all dual driver configs right? I'm not sure I want to go that rout, simply for cost.
I'll definitely put more time into researching these options. Hopefully sometime in the next 5 to 10 years I'll be done wading through all the available information and actually be ready to build a speaker
Thanks again everybody for the great info. There's clearly an awesome group of intelligent people here. I've barely scratched the surface and my gear to date is pretty lame (best audio gear I own right now is a pair of Beyerdynamic DT770 headphones and a decent SS headphone amp) but I'm excited to start taking it up a notch. unfortunately for my wallet, relationship, and free time I see the potential for a bad addiction to hi-fi in my future.
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I am not going to put the manufacturer on the spot so I'll keep his identity to myself for now. I have a number of questions for him.
I am not talking sloppy bass. I expected the higher output impedance of the tube amp to produce a warmer bass compared to the SS amp. It was just the opposite, there is bass down to around 100 Hz but it drops off below that point. No deep bass to speak of, it is not the lack of power. I believe it is just the sound of this tube amp.
Too early to have real impressions, no one has built Maeshowe yet. Scott will be able to talk about theoretical differences.
The curved back integrates the 2 mounths into one large mouth, with wall or corner loading that gives a much larger mouth than Suburo, so it have a lower (much lower would be my call) transition from horn behaviour to TL behavior.
And that it works with 3 different drivers is kinda special.
dave
Glowbug: She's totally a keeper. Also, we just spent $1k on a new couch that she wanted so that bought me some wiggle room.
Dave, what ever happened to the Lotus MBVR? If I read the thread I was reading right, it looks like it was canned.
The Mark CHR70s look good but I don't think I want to deal w/ 4 ohm drivers with the amp I have. It's not a question of being able to handle the lower impedance but rather exaggerating the amp/driver power mis-match more than I would be with the Fostex drivers. But then again the x-max of the CHR70s is so much greater than the FE127e's. Ah, I hate making decisions.
Dave, what ever happened to the Lotus MBVR? If I read the thread I was reading right, it looks like it was canned.
The Mark CHR70s look good but I don't think I want to deal w/ 4 ohm drivers with the amp I have. It's not a question of being able to handle the lower impedance but rather exaggerating the amp/driver power mis-match more than I would be with the Fostex drivers. But then again the x-max of the CHR70s is so much greater than the FE127e's. Ah, I hate making decisions.
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Chris,
Comparing Maeshowe to Saburo, the former should have a slightly smoother response, and create a more spacious soundstage. As Dave mentions above, it's impedance matched to a much lower frequency & will work with 3 (potentially 4) different drivers, so if you fancy a spot of driver-rolling, it can accomodate you. Saburo will be more projective, and provides a little more LF gain with the 126 unless Maeshowe is corner-loaded. Think slightly relaxed sound against a more dynamic one & you'd be about there.
Lotus is still very much around; user reports have all been very enthusiastic. Favourite seems to be the twin driver implementation, 2 drivers per channel, one forward, one side-firing, wired in series for a nominal 7.2 ohm load.
Martin,
Sorry to hear about the amp issues. I'm no amp-bod., but what you describe sounds about par for the course of a lot of commercial / semi-commercial valve amps unfortunately. A good design shouldn't have that kind of problem -OK, limited dynamic headroom is a given if it's low-power & the speakers aren't 100dB 1m/1w minimum, but rolled off below 100Hz? That's definitely not right. Hope you manage to get things sorted out.
Comparing Maeshowe to Saburo, the former should have a slightly smoother response, and create a more spacious soundstage. As Dave mentions above, it's impedance matched to a much lower frequency & will work with 3 (potentially 4) different drivers, so if you fancy a spot of driver-rolling, it can accomodate you. Saburo will be more projective, and provides a little more LF gain with the 126 unless Maeshowe is corner-loaded. Think slightly relaxed sound against a more dynamic one & you'd be about there.
Lotus is still very much around; user reports have all been very enthusiastic. Favourite seems to be the twin driver implementation, 2 drivers per channel, one forward, one side-firing, wired in series for a nominal 7.2 ohm load.
Martin,
Sorry to hear about the amp issues.
I'm no amp-bod., but what you describe sounds about par for the course of a lot of commercial / semi-commercial valve amps unfortunately. A good design shouldn't have that kind of problem -OK, limited dynamic headroom is a given if it's low-power & the speakers aren't 100dB 1m/1w minimum, but rolled off below 100Hz? That's definitely not right. Hope you manage to get things sorted out.
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So far only posted in the CHR thread i believe. The very large project to have an unheard of number of designs to be ready at the same as the shipping of the EL70 has pushed many a project lower in the queue.
dave
Chris - even though many of our prototypes are blasted together rather crudely, I can tell you it's a helluva lot easier for Scott and Dave to design and draw the wide range of these enclosures than it is for one guy to build them all, so "we" tend to cherry pick the ones that might possibly work in our own listening environments, or be easy to transport for demonstration.
In the past several months, Dave and Scott have collaborated on at least a dozen variations of designs for the CSS EL70 as well as Mark Audio family of drivers - from that catalog, "we" have only managed to build about half of them.
An idea from me too - a very simple design with very good (so far) WAF.
This backloaded horn is based on Fostex FE-126E.
Dozens if you include the smattering of new Fostex designs and all the variations, and only a small fraction have been built... Thirlmere, Thirlmere-R, microTower (CHR), Castle microTower (EL70), Lotus^2, Lotus, Vampyr-V (which i don't think i've even drawn yet), Mar-Ken10, mMar-Ken6, mMar-Kel70, mMarS70, Jaguar (under way at least) are the builds i know of.
dave
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