Both. But demand for plans will drive the current CHP. CHP70.3 will get a lot of attention as it will replace both current CHP & EL70.
Get your EL70s while you can. Reading between the lines i will guess that the CHP70.3 won't have quite the bass monster status as the EL70 and CHP-BW is there to help fill the gap.
CHP-BW is interesting in its own right, with (i'm guessing) using it with an XO anywhere between 100 hz and 5K+
I've been throwing out a few potential ideas, here is another. 4 CHP-BW (Series/parallel) + 1 CHP70.3 XOed at about the bafflestep, for a (potential*) full 6dB of BSc. If things like this take off (and not just a CHP-BW + #3 tweeter sort of thing), CHP-BW could run out pretty quick. Scott and i were also playing with the idea of CHP-BW/#3 MTM. C-C of 5-5.5" depending on whether you are willing to take the dremel to the #3's bezel.
*(hopefully the physics plays out and the CHP-BW is a bit less efficient than CHP70.3 as 6dB is usually too much)
dave
The attack of multiple remotes is probably the biggest menace in the TV room now - TV, Blu-Ray/DVD Player, PVR, media player, HT amplifier...
I only have 2 sources at the moment - digital TV box(Motorola) and Apple TV, but what with the gas fireplace , there's a total of 4 remotes (each using a different size battery ) . I don't dare try to program the Motorola to emulate any of the Denon receiver's functions other than power on/off and master system volume.
I briefly flirted with the idea of adding a cheap Blu-Ray player to the mix (to watch the grand total of 3-4 music concert DVDs), but after typing the above paragraph just talked myself out of it
The ATV remote suffers from exactly the opposite "problem" as the others - a gorgeous little piece of less is more, but it's almost too small to hold , while there are far fewer functions, there's less buttons as well and the software/UI to navigate them is a bit clunky - but what a cool toy overall
Dave, Chris,
Excuse my absolute ignorance on this, but it's been a long time since I played with an HT receiver with 5.1 or 7.1 support. The .1 part in 2.1 or 5.1 set up refers to the sub as far as I know. With something like MTs as front spkrs, one is getting decent amount of bass (depending on taste of course) and might feel sub is optional... what is needed many a time is a center speaker for clarity of voice/dialogue. Are their such settings in the receiver that you can configure for 2 front and 1 center (with LF also going to front)?
Another option I am thinking is Lotus^2 (yes I still dream of double mouth horn), center channel and sub - a sort of 3.1 - rear satellites are not on my mind as of yet mainly because of wiring challenges.
But can I trust the HT receiver with the Lotus^2? Been used to tube sound for some time now...
if not a good match, then again duplication of setup looms and with it irking the missus...
-Zia
Excuse my absolute ignorance on this, but it's been a long time since I played with an HT receiver with 5.1 or 7.1 support. The .1 part in 2.1 or 5.1 set up refers to the sub as far as I know. With something like MTs as front spkrs, one is getting decent amount of bass (depending on taste of course) and might feel sub is optional... what is needed many a time is a center speaker for clarity of voice/dialogue. Are their such settings in the receiver that you can configure for 2 front and 1 center (with LF also going to front)?
Another option I am thinking is Lotus^2 (yes I still dream of double mouth horn), center channel and sub - a sort of 3.1 - rear satellites are not on my mind as of yet mainly because of wiring challenges.
But can I trust the HT receiver with the Lotus^2? Been used to tube sound for some time now...
if not a good match, then again duplication of setup looms and with it irking the missus... -Zia
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Dave, Chris,
Excuse my absolute ignorance on this, but it's been a long time since I played with an HT receiver with 5.1 or 7.1 support. The .1 part in 2.1 or 5.1 set up refers to the sub as far as I know. With something like MTs as front spkrs, one is getting decent amount of bass (depending on taste of course) and might feel sub is optional... what is needed many a time is a center speaker for clarity of voice/dialogue. Are their such settings in the receiver that you can configure for 2 front and 1 center (with LF also going to front)?
Another option I am thinking is Lotus^2 (yes I still dream of double mouth horn), center channel and sub - a sort of 3.1 - rear satellites are not on my mind as of yet mainly because of wiring challenges.
But can I trust the HT receiver with the Lotus^2? Been used to tube sound for some time now...
-Zia
Certainly most surround receivers/processors can be configured as Large mains, center as either large or small and No subs, which would be no problem for many 2 or 3 ways with 8" or larger bass drivers, but in the case of small FR drivers such as the EL70s, or Alpair 7 / 10s that I've played with in my own system, there's simply going to be limitations when playing big noisy effects laden soundtracks at higher SPLs.
Even more than in a 2 channel music only system, the advantages of separate woofers for all the heavy lifting in a HT rig are very real - including wider dynamic headroom & less distortion from both main speakers and all channels of amp section of receiver.
Dave affectionately refers to the EL70 as a "bass monster" - well, for the size of cone and motor assembly, the low frequency performance of 2 in the MT is definitely amazing, but even multiples of them will have issues with the content of lowest frequency effects of movie soundtracks - when it comes to LFE, as the saying goes "there is no replacement for displacement".
My system runs Alpair7 Pensil for mains, Alpair7 in small vented enclosure for center, and a pair of triangular corner mounted enclosures each with 2x 8" woofers, powered by a Rotel power amp off the receiver's LFE channel. (I've still not been motivated build and install the nifty little surrounds that Dave has sketched out). The largest FR speaker I presently have in the house are Fostex FE167E in a floorstanding enclosures, which are no slouch themselves, but when run as "large mains/no sub" they simply can't come close to the dual "subs" and Alpair 7 combo. More musical? perhaps, but for movie soundtracks theatrical effects, etc., they run into serious problems of distortion, congestion, and the imaging of the front row falls apart.
I'm as much a fan of "less is more" in an audio system as the next FR/SET-head/ DIYer, but after playing with a couple of HT systems over the years (and certainly modest by many standards), I'm convinced this is not the best place to pursue that ethos.
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dMar-Ken7 Centre 1
Maybe that big. A tad bigger than SDX7. Salvaged Eastech OEM units made in Malaysia, and optimized for LF duty (they were XOed at 200 Hz, in their original life).
I've not heard them yet, but being a pair of pairs corner loaded they should perform admirably, and with the basically retangular room, create fairly even bass room-wide.
dave
Attachments
Chrisb,
You've pretty much captured everything. Now I have a better understanding of the ingredients. In my case I am planning to put this together with CHR-70/Omnes BB4.AL.
But long road ahead:
1. HT Receiver - need to buy
2. Centre Channel - need to make
3. Sub or Woofer - Have pretty hefty old 12" drivers... but where to keep?
4. Front - Can be anything using CHR-70
Given space restrictions of keeping the woofer, the space optimizing idea I have is to use the EL66 MLTL for a single cabinet solution for Front and LF (it is a Bi-amped design)... well there goes my heavy metal speaker (re assignment of duties)... and my Lotus^2 (need to find another place and excuse to keep those).
Everyday is a winding road...
-Zia
You've pretty much captured everything. Now I have a better understanding of the ingredients. In my case I am planning to put this together with CHR-70/Omnes BB4.AL.
But long road ahead:
1. HT Receiver - need to buy
2. Centre Channel - need to make
3. Sub or Woofer - Have pretty hefty old 12" drivers... but where to keep?
4. Front - Can be anything using CHR-70
Given space restrictions of keeping the woofer, the space optimizing idea I have is to use the EL66 MLTL for a single cabinet solution for Front and LF (it is a Bi-amped design)... well there goes my heavy metal speaker (re assignment of duties)... and my Lotus^2 (need to find another place and excuse to keep those).
Everyday is a winding road...
-Zia
It hadn't hit me before - triangular means corner loaded... so there might be some hope for my 12 inch woofers after all! But I don't have any specs/measurements on those - maybe time time to do that.
-Zia
Note, the woofer enclosures have been inverted from Dave's sketch - i.e. slot ports downfiring, with the enclosure sitting on a 4" high kick base ( WAF strikes again)
Yes, considering that the front corners are the only suitable locations (one behind a folding shoji screen, and the other a large potted palm), the bass is fairly well distributed.
8" was just a WAG - perhaps it's with the plastic bezels removed that they seem larger than the SDX7.
Zia - note that a lot of newer HT receiver offerings include some level of Audyssey or similar set-up and EQ software. My purchase of this particular Denon model ( AVR1610) was more a matter of budget than power and full feature set, but this is already one I can't imagine living without. It comes with a calibrated mike and in less than 5 minutes runs you through a program that sets levels and adjusts for speaker distances for all channels ( 5.1 in this case), pinpoints any out-of phase drivers, and calculates recommended XO for bass management, determined by the in-room FR response of your speakers. These settings can be overridden, and out of mild paranoia I have raised XO frequencies for the Alpair 7s to 90 for mains and 100 for center.
Yes, considering that the front corners are the only suitable locations (one behind a folding shoji screen, and the other a large potted palm), the bass is fairly well distributed.
8" was just a WAG - perhaps it's with the plastic bezels removed that they seem larger than the SDX7.
Zia - note that a lot of newer HT receiver offerings include some level of Audyssey or similar set-up and EQ software. My purchase of this particular Denon model ( AVR1610) was more a matter of budget than power and full feature set, but this is already one I can't imagine living without. It comes with a calibrated mike and in less than 5 minutes runs you through a program that sets levels and adjusts for speaker distances for all channels ( 5.1 in this case), pinpoints any out-of phase drivers, and calculates recommended XO for bass management, determined by the in-room FR response of your speakers. These settings can be overridden, and out of mild paranoia I have raised XO frequencies for the Alpair 7s to 90 for mains and 100 for center.
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Impressive indeed! BTW, I just looked up AVR-1611 this morning... saw the mic option and though wow - this fella is going to calibrate the system with the room?
So it does work.-Zia
Impressive indeed! BTW, I just looked up AVR-1611 this morning... saw the mic option and though wow - this fella is going to calibrate the system with the room?
-Zia
close enough for me - I gave up on surround HT at home several times in the past 10yrs due in part to the complexity of the calibration, and now it's included in a receiver that cost me less than the rug in the family room.
there's of course still no substitute for a well tonally balanced speaker array in the right locations, and some degree of acoustic treatment - but that's a mere matter of time and money, of which we all have surplus - ha!
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I used to have a Denon AVR-888 and while the auto EQ worked, sometimes it just didn't sound as good as it did without EQ. It works fine for movies, but music is hit or miss with Audyssey enabled.
If you still want to use it for music and find that you don't quite like the EQ you can actually turn it off on the front channels, and I think you can also turn it off for 2 channel sources.
Distances are off by a bit for using auto measurements, but nothing that a tape measure and a little bit of patience can't fix.
The automatic crossover points it sets for each channel if you have a sub seems fairly accurate though, so no complaints there.
If you still want to use it for music and find that you don't quite like the EQ you can actually turn it off on the front channels, and I think you can also turn it off for 2 channel sources.
Distances are off by a bit for using auto measurements, but nothing that a tape measure and a little bit of patience can't fix.
The automatic crossover points it sets for each channel if you have a sub seems fairly accurate though, so no complaints there.
I don't use this system for serious music only listening - even in full surround bypass mode it sounds horribly thin and artificial compared to a little P/P EL84 amp of 15watts, notwithstanding the latter configuration's lack of powered woofers. In fact one of my favorite live venue concert recordings (Loreena McKennitt- "Alhambra") is available in a DVD set version. I've watched it once in 4 years or so since buying it (to be honest, I can't even remember if it's recorded in surround), and haven't even had the DVD connected for over a year - the little upstairs system wipes the floor with the Denon when it comes to well recorded 2 channel music.
However, for me, any artifacts of the EQ when set to auto mode (usually selects Dolby Pro LogicII / cinema ) are buried by the totally contrived and overblown nature of soundtracks and effects of vast majority of movie and TV programming (except for the occasionally surprising late night talk shows). Once you've suspended the cognitive dissonance between the acoustic environments being simulated and what you know the actual physical space to be, it's quite enjoyable.
I just don't over analyze it
No tricks - on the few occasions I want to use the room, I simply disconnect the Pensils (or any others under test) from the Denon and plug in any of several the tube amps and Jolida CD player for serious listening or Citypulse DAC to Toslink output of ATV2 for wireless access to iTunes library.
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The metal mesh grills that came with thes eand fit into the plastic bezles are the perfect cover for the SDX7. They just fit over the edge of the bezel.
dave
Exactly my fears... can't really enjoy the music...
IMHO great approach to this particular problem...
Now if there existed such a beast that would have a decent tube amplifier for the fronts, and had the ability to integrate this with other SS parts under the hood in HT mode... that would be a crazy convergence of sorts! But guess that might turn out to be quite complex and can be debated if there's a market for it at all! Much easier swapping the cables!
-Zia
p.s. some madman with a Miniwatt and good electronics skills can give it a try heh?
I didn't like my Denon that much for music, which is why I used to have it.
I moved up to an Anthem MRX 300 and am considering using the preouts to feed a F5 for powering the front channels. You could also feed any other amp with RCA inputs using a receiver with preouts.
The EQ sounds worlds better compared to the Denon, but I don't have any high end 2 channel gear to use for comparison, but it certainly costs far more than an AVR-1611 would.
I moved up to an Anthem MRX 300 and am considering using the preouts to feed a F5 for powering the front channels. You could also feed any other amp with RCA inputs using a receiver with preouts.
The EQ sounds worlds better compared to the Denon, but I don't have any high end 2 channel gear to use for comparison, but it certainly costs far more than an AVR-1611 would.
As wonderful an upgrade as it might be over the Denon (thank goodness I never took the salesman's offer of a home trial), the approx $1300 retail for entry level MRX300 was a bit rich for my blood at the time. I don't even want to know what the separates would be worth.
and as much as I love the sound of my 2-channel music system, I don't delude myself that a serious audiophile would consider it "Hi-End"
Zia - that's your solution of course - a $3000 A/V processor with full analog bypass, running tube amps in all modes. It's only your kid's inheritance you're spending
Not happening Chris
But what about this?
MA Mini-X5.1 Tube Amplifier for AV Home Theater New | eBay UK
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