my first post on these board but i have been lurking for a while. i am still in the learning stages about speakers(im a headphone guy) so pardon whatever ignorance seeps through.
most of my listening so far has been done via sennheiser hd 650 headphones. ive gone through about 10 amps and 3 sources and the final verdict was that they sounded best a tube amp. all sources were dac's fed by spdif from a computer fed with lossless files. i am not much of a cd person. i lack the patience to sit through an entire cd and often times i just want to hear different tracks from various artists and having all my music in a program offers the best solution.
at any rate, the 650s have a very smooth, grain free and laid back presentation. lots of headphone people maintain that they have some sort of veil on the top end. sounds like there is a very thin layer of cotton around the drivers. however the veil disappears when amped by any top notch headphone amp. i dont like that. the sound signature i prefer is a dark velvety sound that is just a wee bit slow. something that you would hear on a humid night at the back row of a concert. i listen to fairly low volumes turning up the headphones on a very few select songs. the bass is very weighty with the 650s also to my preference. i HATE bright top ends or anything with too much treble energy. anything that sounds tinny or metallic or harsh causes physical pain to my ears so is completely out of the question.
here is the actual question now. i have had a chance to hear fostex 206e's in a hedlund horn and in a bib. in the hedlund, they sounded much more refined where i could hear every note distinctly but it sounded too analytical and non cohesive (perhaps it was the solid state amp, i dont know for sure). the bass was articulate but not as weighty as i would have liked it to be. with the bib it was almost perfect. the sound was nice and warm. the notes were a little muddied but it sounded like music. no treble energy. very tame high end. depending on where it was placed in the room, the bass was either perfect or overpowered the rest of the frequency range and made everything boomy. however, all the way in the back of the corner it was just perfect. it didnt sound shrill or tinny.
both drivers have their center piece cut out with empty sockets in place currently. phase plugs are in the process of being turned out as i type this. perhaps my opinions of the speakers change with their introduction. overall i prefer the bib over the hedlund and i think i might get to hear the drivers in a dallas/sachiko cabinet as well but it is the very drivers i have a question about. for about the same price range ( +- $150) is there any other driver that can given me a nice dark creamy sound or should i try the speakers with a tube amp first to see if it was the solid state amp causing the coldness. the 206e's are phenomenal with what they do but they dont sound like the headphones i am used to. obviously i shouldnt try to make one sound like the other but it is the sound signature i am looking for.
any and all suggestions for the drivers, mods to the drivers, amps, preamps, mods to the cabinet etc would be appreciated.
thanks,
cj.
most of my listening so far has been done via sennheiser hd 650 headphones. ive gone through about 10 amps and 3 sources and the final verdict was that they sounded best a tube amp. all sources were dac's fed by spdif from a computer fed with lossless files. i am not much of a cd person. i lack the patience to sit through an entire cd and often times i just want to hear different tracks from various artists and having all my music in a program offers the best solution.
at any rate, the 650s have a very smooth, grain free and laid back presentation. lots of headphone people maintain that they have some sort of veil on the top end. sounds like there is a very thin layer of cotton around the drivers. however the veil disappears when amped by any top notch headphone amp. i dont like that. the sound signature i prefer is a dark velvety sound that is just a wee bit slow. something that you would hear on a humid night at the back row of a concert. i listen to fairly low volumes turning up the headphones on a very few select songs. the bass is very weighty with the 650s also to my preference. i HATE bright top ends or anything with too much treble energy. anything that sounds tinny or metallic or harsh causes physical pain to my ears so is completely out of the question.
here is the actual question now. i have had a chance to hear fostex 206e's in a hedlund horn and in a bib. in the hedlund, they sounded much more refined where i could hear every note distinctly but it sounded too analytical and non cohesive (perhaps it was the solid state amp, i dont know for sure). the bass was articulate but not as weighty as i would have liked it to be. with the bib it was almost perfect. the sound was nice and warm. the notes were a little muddied but it sounded like music. no treble energy. very tame high end. depending on where it was placed in the room, the bass was either perfect or overpowered the rest of the frequency range and made everything boomy. however, all the way in the back of the corner it was just perfect. it didnt sound shrill or tinny.
both drivers have their center piece cut out with empty sockets in place currently. phase plugs are in the process of being turned out as i type this. perhaps my opinions of the speakers change with their introduction. overall i prefer the bib over the hedlund and i think i might get to hear the drivers in a dallas/sachiko cabinet as well but it is the very drivers i have a question about. for about the same price range ( +- $150) is there any other driver that can given me a nice dark creamy sound or should i try the speakers with a tube amp first to see if it was the solid state amp causing the coldness. the 206e's are phenomenal with what they do but they dont sound like the headphones i am used to. obviously i shouldnt try to make one sound like the other but it is the sound signature i am looking for.
any and all suggestions for the drivers, mods to the drivers, amps, preamps, mods to the cabinet etc would be appreciated.
thanks,
cj.
CJ:
My money's on a decent low powered tube amp (either DIY such as Bottlehead S.E.X, or up-coming "Stereomour" 2A3 integrated/ Decware, or manufactured such as Glow, etc) to elicit the most intimate and emotionally involving performance from the 206E in any of the appropriate enclosures; i.e. most likely some form of BLH or BIB
Be advised that such enclosures, and most particularly the double forward facing mouth designs such as the Sachiko, will require a large room - both to support the low frequencies, and to integrate the soundstage.
As for mods to the drivers see my signature line for disclosure, but the Planet10 EnABL treatment and phase plugs are pretty hard to beat. You've apparently already got the latter underway; the former can be DIY, but is not a project for a polka-dot newby for the faint of heart or impatient.
My money's on a decent low powered tube amp (either DIY such as Bottlehead S.E.X, or up-coming "Stereomour" 2A3 integrated/ Decware, or manufactured such as Glow, etc) to elicit the most intimate and emotionally involving performance from the 206E in any of the appropriate enclosures; i.e. most likely some form of BLH or BIB
Be advised that such enclosures, and most particularly the double forward facing mouth designs such as the Sachiko, will require a large room - both to support the low frequencies, and to integrate the soundstage.
As for mods to the drivers see my signature line for disclosure, but the Planet10 EnABL treatment and phase plugs are pretty hard to beat. You've apparently already got the latter underway; the former can be DIY, but is not a project for a polka-dot newby for the faint of heart or impatient.
thanks for the quick reply.
the woodwork and mods (everything really barring the listening part) is being done by a master woodworker and a very practiced diyer. the closest ive come to the whole thing is just listening to it. i trust him fully.
the room the speakers will be going into is currently 13x9 feet. however i will be moving into a new house where i think the largest space i will be able to appropriate from the housemates will be somewhere around 16x15 AT THE MOST. chances are the room will be probably 14x14 or something similar in size.
the room itself will just have the speaker rig, 2 desks and a chair and a bedsheet (i sleep on the floor). the bed sheet shouldnt offer any obstructions to the sound but the desks might. i will be going for something very low profile in terms of the size of the desk so shouldnt be THAT big of a problem. the rest of the room will be empty. if required i can move in some bookshelves as diffusers.
given the above, should i be looking at something else entirely besides the 206e horns? as before, suggestions are welcome.
the woodwork and mods (everything really barring the listening part) is being done by a master woodworker and a very practiced diyer. the closest ive come to the whole thing is just listening to it. i trust him fully.
the room the speakers will be going into is currently 13x9 feet. however i will be moving into a new house where i think the largest space i will be able to appropriate from the housemates will be somewhere around 16x15 AT THE MOST. chances are the room will be probably 14x14 or something similar in size.
the room itself will just have the speaker rig, 2 desks and a chair and a bedsheet (i sleep on the floor). the bed sheet shouldnt offer any obstructions to the sound but the desks might. i will be going for something very low profile in terms of the size of the desk so shouldnt be THAT big of a problem. the rest of the room will be empty. if required i can move in some bookshelves as diffusers.
given the above, should i be looking at something else entirely besides the 206e horns? as before, suggestions are welcome.
I'll let others weigh in on the question, but my initial response would be yes, I'd look at something in the way of a smaller driver & enclosure. If you like what your heard from the 206E in Hedlund enclosure, the Fostex sound might be right for you, and either of the next smaller size drivers could be a better fit.
Be advised however, that even for the FE166e, a BLH, BIB or double mouth SPAWN series enclosure might well still have issues with listening distance. Perhaps one of the Half sized BVRs such as Half Chang ( FE207) or Half Chilli ( FE167) would be work looking at. I've built a couple of pairs of Brynn (FE127E), and although they can definitely benefit from bass augmentation, I like them very much.
Be advised however, that even for the FE166e, a BLH, BIB or double mouth SPAWN series enclosure might well still have issues with listening distance. Perhaps one of the Half sized BVRs such as Half Chang ( FE207) or Half Chilli ( FE167) would be work looking at. I've built a couple of pairs of Brynn (FE127E), and although they can definitely benefit from bass augmentation, I like them very much.
any suggestions for cabinets for the 207 driver (or are they the same as the 206e?
the same gentleman who is working on the 206e drivers and all those horns also built a pair of monitors using the 127e drivers for a friend of mine in this cabinet.
http://homepage.mac.com/tlinespeakers/FAL/box-plans/small-FE127e-BR.pdf
i havent spent as much time listening to them but they sound excellent for the price. the bass is obviously lacking but from monitors i wouldnt expect a lot. having said that, the bass is not hollow sounding like i had expected it to be. nice tight bass. not much weight to it though. mid range is magical. hopefully i get some more time to listen to those monitors.
is the 2 way (206/207 + sub) route worth considering in my case where the listening room is not that big? or should i just keep things simple with one driver?
thanks again to all for the helpful responses.
the same gentleman who is working on the 206e drivers and all those horns also built a pair of monitors using the 127e drivers for a friend of mine in this cabinet.
http://homepage.mac.com/tlinespeakers/FAL/box-plans/small-FE127e-BR.pdf
i havent spent as much time listening to them but they sound excellent for the price. the bass is obviously lacking but from monitors i wouldnt expect a lot. having said that, the bass is not hollow sounding like i had expected it to be. nice tight bass. not much weight to it though. mid range is magical. hopefully i get some more time to listen to those monitors.
is the 2 way (206/207 + sub) route worth considering in my case where the listening room is not that big? or should i just keep things simple with one driver?
thanks again to all for the helpful responses.
crappyjones123 said:
I didn't know that i ever put that one out there. That is an early conceptual drawing fro what turned out to be the mFonken.
Once you make the decision to use helper woofers (not necessarily subs), the choice of potentional mid-tweeter becomes much broader. I've found myself listening to uFonken (FF85KeN) with the FonkenWoofTLs (2xSDX7) this last week.
dave
There's quite a difference between the little FE127 near field monitor and any optimal design for either the 206 or 207.
To echo Dave's post above, your situation might well be better served by the 167, for which Scott and Dave have a couple of excellent designs - the Half Chili and Fonken '67
To echo Dave's post above, your situation might well be better served by the 167, for which Scott and Dave have a couple of excellent designs - the Half Chili and Fonken '67
Hello,
"any and all suggestions for the drivers, mods to the drivers, amps, preamps, mods to the cabinet etc would be appreciated. "
look on my homepage
look the single measurement of a 206 E
than you understand why i constructed the sats:
Trumpet, Horn, Schalmei.
FR: SAXOPHON
look the single measurement of a 206 E
than you understand why i constructed the Saxophon
for the money is the SICA LP 208.38/1100
and the standart Audio Nirvana 8" a good choice
"any and all suggestions for the drivers, mods to the drivers, amps, preamps, mods to the cabinet etc would be appreciated. "
look on my homepage
look the single measurement of a 206 E
than you understand why i constructed the sats:
Trumpet, Horn, Schalmei.
FR: SAXOPHON
look the single measurement of a 206 E
than you understand why i constructed the Saxophon
for the money is the SICA LP 208.38/1100
and the standart Audio Nirvana 8" a good choice
Attachments
The 206 isn't going to sound like a pair of Sennheiser headphones -I know their signiture of old; I've even got a pair of their cheaper 570s for use with the PC. Not that I'd call them dark or creamy myself. Anyway, you're not going to make a 206 sound like that, whatever you do, although a current-source or very low DF valve amp and listening a few degrees off axis (which is essentially what they're designed for) will help.
Chris & Dave's suggestion of the 167 or 207 is a canny one -they're inherently a smoother drivers. Personally, I prefer them to the 166/206, but YMMV as ever of course, & they too, benefit from a phase plug. Most drivers with whizzer cones do.
Given your lack of space, I'd avoid very large cabinets as they won't integrate particularly well. You'd be better off going for something a bit more modest. In floorstanding terms, there are plenty of good options around the for the 167 & 207; Dave's 167 Fonken immediately comes to mind, as does Bob Brines's FT1600 MLTL. Bob also does an MLTL for the 207, and a reasonably large BR standmount too -given the kind of sound you like, I suspect that latter would be right up your street, and Bob doesn't charge much for his detailed plans: http://www.geocities.com/rbrines1/Pages/FB-20/Main.html
Chris & Dave's suggestion of the 167 or 207 is a canny one -they're inherently a smoother drivers. Personally, I prefer them to the 166/206, but YMMV as ever of course, & they too, benefit from a phase plug. Most drivers with whizzer cones do.
Given your lack of space, I'd avoid very large cabinets as they won't integrate particularly well. You'd be better off going for something a bit more modest. In floorstanding terms, there are plenty of good options around the for the 167 & 207; Dave's 167 Fonken immediately comes to mind, as does Bob Brines's FT1600 MLTL. Bob also does an MLTL for the 207, and a reasonably large BR standmount too -given the kind of sound you like, I suspect that latter would be right up your street, and Bob doesn't charge much for his detailed plans: http://www.geocities.com/rbrines1/Pages/FB-20/Main.html
I know what you mean...
I really know what you mean about needing creaminess on top.
My introduction to the real audio world 7 years ago (graduating from the car audio world) was through a pair of hd600s, and then 650s. I played that system for Terry Cain, to his surprise with how far headphone technology had come since his early days. I course, I got his speakers shortly thereafter. In college, speakers throw a better party than headphones
I started working for him on the side and it just all spiraled out of control from there.
The 206e, even if the cone is tamed, it can still be a bit beamy and will dramatically lack upper hf response off axis, even by 10-15 degrees. A phase plug should incrimentally help this trait but will most certainly not "erase" that trait. I tend to use the smaller Fostex drivers in my commercial designs because they have the best HF tone quality and off axis response to my ears. Frankly, it is a matter of personal taste.
While the 206e is indeed a fine, fine driver, and while I have built and sold loudspeakers with them and will continue to do so in the future, they also are what they are. The cast iron that Fostex uses in the "e" series is of marginal quality for magnetic permeability, even on many of their more expensive drivers than the fe206e. If you can notice an ultimate graininess in the upper frequencies, then you will hate me for saying this but it will take a different magnetic material and magnetic circuit material to help this out. Not even cone treatment to an extent can help this trait out. Of course, YMMV, and if you now hate me for telling you this, then it is because this is where things get expensive. F200a, or most anything with Alnico will have an advantage in upper frequency chillaxing and bottom bass blossom boosom booming. Your tube amps will agree. your ears will agree. People that want to sell you something cheaper will likely not agree.
A tweeter will help but can pose a risk of other issues. A true full range driver, or learning to curb your expectations regarding final extention out of the less expensive full rangers is very much worth the effort, IMO as far as your personal music appreciation factor goes, unless you want to spend more on the tweeter setup than the fullrange driver itself.
Of course, not all Alnico/low carbon steel or iron ceramic is created equal, as the circuit geometry and material varies from manufacturer to manufacturer. I am cursed while listening to most speakers because I can hear these little differences in every manufacturer's approach very clearly in the final sound of a given driver after having worked at Feastrex for a time and also having heard several Lowthers and Fostexs of different magnetic types. Lately, I have gotten pretty darned picky as to whether a driver sounds like it has enough magnetic "torque" regarding a stable HF speed while being able to handle the variety of different conditions that music presents for the whole physical/electrical system. Most marketers gloss over this inescapable law of how the whole magnetic system's quality affects the innate tone quality. That is because most speakers use cheap magnets. Not a bad thing, because even cheap materials can sound fabulous, but it is simply a "that's the way it is" thing.
If you are otherwise not able to hear such a grainy tone quality out of the FeXXXe series drivers, or the cost/benefit ratio turns you off for what is in the end mostly an aesthetic trait rather than something that affects measureable frequency response, then mod forth on the FE206e. Many people do and are pleased with the results.
I have not yet heard Dave and Chris's work on the 206eN, but I am happy with the results on the 126eN and 83eN which I have had them OEM for me on occasion. For the money, they are pretty hard to beat. Of course, I have not heard every last competitor in those price ranges, but I have heard many. There are lots of things that Fostex does right with their drivers. If you could ask me what they should change, it would be for them to offer consistent production of different types of magnets and frames on what is roughly the same cone. I would enjoy it if they had options with nicer magnets, even if the price is much higher (which it has to be if the material quality is actually up to snuff). The old Japanese made Fostex drivers were very nice in this regard, if not quite as high performance and environmentally friendly as the banana pulp cones.
I would recommend trying the 206e drivers out stock first with phase plugs and seeing where to go from there. The 207e is another option, but you loose a little speed to get the smoothness. As far as what studios exist to send your drivers in for modification, either 206 or 207 or beyond, I am as yet unaware of other people than Dave and Chris offering such a service. They are nice guys to boot. Also, I have not personally tried an 8" BIB, but I have been quite happy with the 6", 5" and 4" BIBs that I have made. Good for the style of reproduction that you are seeking.
Cheers,
-Clark
I really know what you mean about needing creaminess on top.
My introduction to the real audio world 7 years ago (graduating from the car audio world) was through a pair of hd600s, and then 650s. I played that system for Terry Cain, to his surprise with how far headphone technology had come since his early days. I course, I got his speakers shortly thereafter. In college, speakers throw a better party than headphones
I started working for him on the side and it just all spiraled out of control from there.The 206e, even if the cone is tamed, it can still be a bit beamy and will dramatically lack upper hf response off axis, even by 10-15 degrees. A phase plug should incrimentally help this trait but will most certainly not "erase" that trait. I tend to use the smaller Fostex drivers in my commercial designs because they have the best HF tone quality and off axis response to my ears. Frankly, it is a matter of personal taste.
While the 206e is indeed a fine, fine driver, and while I have built and sold loudspeakers with them and will continue to do so in the future, they also are what they are. The cast iron that Fostex uses in the "e" series is of marginal quality for magnetic permeability, even on many of their more expensive drivers than the fe206e. If you can notice an ultimate graininess in the upper frequencies, then you will hate me for saying this but it will take a different magnetic material and magnetic circuit material to help this out. Not even cone treatment to an extent can help this trait out. Of course, YMMV, and if you now hate me for telling you this, then it is because this is where things get expensive. F200a, or most anything with Alnico will have an advantage in upper frequency chillaxing and bottom bass blossom boosom booming. Your tube amps will agree. your ears will agree. People that want to sell you something cheaper will likely not agree.
A tweeter will help but can pose a risk of other issues. A true full range driver, or learning to curb your expectations regarding final extention out of the less expensive full rangers is very much worth the effort, IMO as far as your personal music appreciation factor goes, unless you want to spend more on the tweeter setup than the fullrange driver itself.
Of course, not all Alnico/low carbon steel or iron ceramic is created equal, as the circuit geometry and material varies from manufacturer to manufacturer. I am cursed while listening to most speakers because I can hear these little differences in every manufacturer's approach very clearly in the final sound of a given driver after having worked at Feastrex for a time and also having heard several Lowthers and Fostexs of different magnetic types. Lately, I have gotten pretty darned picky as to whether a driver sounds like it has enough magnetic "torque" regarding a stable HF speed while being able to handle the variety of different conditions that music presents for the whole physical/electrical system. Most marketers gloss over this inescapable law of how the whole magnetic system's quality affects the innate tone quality. That is because most speakers use cheap magnets. Not a bad thing, because even cheap materials can sound fabulous, but it is simply a "that's the way it is" thing.
If you are otherwise not able to hear such a grainy tone quality out of the FeXXXe series drivers, or the cost/benefit ratio turns you off for what is in the end mostly an aesthetic trait rather than something that affects measureable frequency response, then mod forth on the FE206e. Many people do and are pleased with the results.
I have not yet heard Dave and Chris's work on the 206eN, but I am happy with the results on the 126eN and 83eN which I have had them OEM for me on occasion. For the money, they are pretty hard to beat. Of course, I have not heard every last competitor in those price ranges, but I have heard many. There are lots of things that Fostex does right with their drivers. If you could ask me what they should change, it would be for them to offer consistent production of different types of magnets and frames on what is roughly the same cone. I would enjoy it if they had options with nicer magnets, even if the price is much higher (which it has to be if the material quality is actually up to snuff). The old Japanese made Fostex drivers were very nice in this regard, if not quite as high performance and environmentally friendly as the banana pulp cones.
I would recommend trying the 206e drivers out stock first with phase plugs and seeing where to go from there. The 207e is another option, but you loose a little speed to get the smoothness. As far as what studios exist to send your drivers in for modification, either 206 or 207 or beyond, I am as yet unaware of other people than Dave and Chris offering such a service. They are nice guys to boot. Also, I have not personally tried an 8" BIB, but I have been quite happy with the 6", 5" and 4" BIBs that I have made. Good for the style of reproduction that you are seeking.
Cheers,
-Clark
For my interest, which is a very well balanced FR, without any hint of shriek or burn in the highs, Planet 10's F127 en in a full Fonken box is totally satisfying. Solid to 35 Hz and open, liquid and only musical through the rest of the frequency range.
Naturally the F 200 A en has at least 3 times the resolution and has no FR drawbacks at all. Just a bit lacking in dynamic color, such as you find in the 127 and all Lowther's once EnABL'd. Both of the Fostex models will rival your headphones for information content and even the 127 will surpass the headphones in some areas of transients, space replication and textural depth, for content like a full orchestra provides.
I have a pair of Audio Nirvana 8 inch drivers in for EnABL treatment currently. Untreated you would not like them. There is a rising high end and though mostly well controlled, when it loses control it is pretty painful. I suspect I can control all of that and at that point they should be superb as they start out with a good dose of information content, before the patterns do their work.
In short, you cannot go wrong with one of Dave's products, because music is all they do.
Bud
Naturally the F 200 A en has at least 3 times the resolution and has no FR drawbacks at all. Just a bit lacking in dynamic color, such as you find in the 127 and all Lowther's once EnABL'd. Both of the Fostex models will rival your headphones for information content and even the 127 will surpass the headphones in some areas of transients, space replication and textural depth, for content like a full orchestra provides.
I have a pair of Audio Nirvana 8 inch drivers in for EnABL treatment currently. Untreated you would not like them. There is a rising high end and though mostly well controlled, when it loses control it is pretty painful. I suspect I can control all of that and at that point they should be superb as they start out with a good dose of information content, before the patterns do their work.
In short, you cannot go wrong with one of Dave's products, because music is all they do.
Bud
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