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Old 30th March 2009, 11:28 PM   #1
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Default clairaudient diy clone ?

I'd think with 3" drivers (70mm frame) that combing would be an issue............................ I'd think 2" would work better, but the new xbl designed 3" with 6mm xmax, 12mm p-p, has more excursion and low end. And the use a subwoofer (as would / do I). Maybe a woofer at 200hz would work better.

I'm amazed at the excellent comments on the 8 unit arrays.


http://www.audience-av.com/loudspeakers/

but stereophile liked it. 2007 rmaf comment on 16 unit
http://blog.stereophile.com/rmaf2007/
"The sound of the 16-driver version in the RMAF room was a little lacking in top-octave air, but was otherwise very detailed."

positive feedback liked it (2008)
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue36/ces08jm.htm
"No room at CES this year sounded better than the Audience set up. No room sounded as sonically accurate, as emotionally and aesthetically beguiling, as musically truthful and flat out startling with dynamic rightness of weight and timbre—as melodically, angelically charismatic."

stereotimes liked it 2009
http://www.stereotimes.com/CES2009DSa.shtml

I'd watched his 8 minute viedo on youtube, sounded better than I thought it would, but I don't buy the comment that the baffle is wide enough to not have to deal with baffle step.

Maybe the combing in the highs bring them down, acting as free baffle step.

What ya think ?

Norman
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Old 31st March 2009, 10:54 AM   #2
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New update to the 4 driver mini array using the audience a3 driver !!!!!

"I've just finished up this four driver array. The cabinets are now 24 liters, have 2-1" ports, and the cabinet walls lightly lined with real wool. I used Audience's Auric hook up wire for optimal sound quality. They are very detailed in sound out of the box with no break in. They have a very high quality sound for such a small full range loudspeaker.....................Concerning any combing issues, I don't notice any. If the drivers had more spacing between them, then there might be a combing issue."

The a3 driver seems nice but $170 each, it ain't cheap. Then again, you have 6mm xmax...........

You could run 4 of the tang band 2" x 3" drivers (.9mm Xmax for $25). But one of the A3 drivers moves a squeek more air than 6 of the 2" x 3" (both near sd of 32cm2). Four of the tang bands in a sealed box of .25ft3 have an f3 near 185hz if I remember correctly.

The a3 driver has a 70mm wide frame.
4 in a vertical stack make an 11" long array.

I'm thinking 4 of the 2"x3" tang bands should not have a combing problem. I'm not a poly cone fan, but the cone mms is a very light 1.5 grams. Perhaps the 2"x3" has better breakup modes than a circular speaker. And the freq climb into the top octave helps far field as dispersion narrows.

I was hot to recommend the 2" tang band w2-803sm (or the 2" peerless 830970), but its sd of 13cm2 is really small, especially for $15. For 1.6 times the price, you gain 2.5 times the area while only adding 50% more weight.

An 8 driver array might be fun (of the 2"x3"), that would be shorter than the line length of the 8 driver clairaudient loudspeaker (about 22" versus 16").

I imagine 4 or the a3's would smoke 4 of the 2"x3".
The a3's should go much louder before sounding harsh.
The 2"x3" would probably need to be crossed over maybe 200-300hz.
4 of the a3 should move 24 times the air of 4 of the 2"x3" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(I estimated this by sd times Xmax)
The paperwork on the A3 driver has the thd very low until it reachs 3mm xmax.
Then again, the a3 has a peak near 8khz that may add too many s's and t's............................

Norman
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Old 31st March 2009, 10:55 PM   #3
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oops..................

4 of the audience a3 move 6.6 times as much air as 4 of the 2"x3"

6mm x 32cm2 x 4 drivers versus .9mm x 32cm2 x 4 drivers.

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Old 1st April 2009, 01:02 AM   #4
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Default Re: clairaudient diy clone ?

Quote:
Originally posted by norman bates
I'd think with 3" drivers (70mm frame) that combing would be an issue....

but stereophile liked it. 2007 rmaf comment on 16 unit... was a little lacking in top-octave air...
Could that be due to combing? I did the math for a post on another forum <4500 we start getting combing.

Quote:
but I don't buy the comment that the baffle is wide enough to not have to deal with baffle step.
same here... based on the driver width, baffle step F3 is going to be 300-350 Hz.

dave
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Old 1st April 2009, 03:38 AM   #5
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Given a baffle step near 300-350hz, I estimate the baffle width is 13"-15".
18" wide baffle would be -3db near 250hz (great midrange in a buddy's diy wide speaker).
If I remember correectly, it was reported a baffle needed to be 30" wide to ignore baffle step.

The 7th veil had 4 bandor drivers (coated with 3 coats of c37), the jordan array had 4 drivers, I think 8 is a stretch esecially for the 70mm frame on the A3. I remember 7th veil being against any crossover. And 4 drivers will make cleaner mids than 2 drivers with 2 used as baffle step only. A crossover would be even cleaner but again, we are back to those evils. Even 6db with 1 cap removes something.

Soundstage.com will review the Clairaudient 8+8 system in the future.
I assumed that system uses a crossover.

We have to remember that they at rmaf ran a dual 12" with it (2007 and 2009 at least).
We have no idea if array was passive, active crossover, or if the array run wide open.

I think a 4 array crossed actively 24db at 200hz (with baffle step) would work very well.

I saw where someone (online years back) ran a 4 driver vert array with w3-871s and loved it (larger frame).

I think the small light cones will have the edge in resolution.
I have a feeling that two or four 1 gram cones have better resolution than a 4" or 5" cone, especially my 4" bamboo.

I think $170 each A3 is outrageous, but the sheer xmax and tricky design justifies the cost.
And the area moved smokes other small light coned drivers with much smaller xmax.
Meaning they go a lot louder before they sound harsh (distorted).

Too bad the alpair 5 has a 100mm frame size.
I think the bread and butter of the diy full range crowd is close to or under $100 per driver, or $100 per left or right for speaker components, whether it is 1 driver or 4 drivers.

Norman
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Old 1st April 2009, 05:32 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by norman bates
If I remember correectly, it was reported a baffle needed to be 30" wide to ignore baffle step.
That is the number GM threw out... depends on how close to the wall.

Quote:
The 7th veil had 4 bandor drivers (coated with 3 coats of c37)... I remember 7th veil being against any crossover.
But didn't it allow you to switch out the outside 2.

Didn't Brian Cherry try 8 & 16 if the Jordan Jr6 and decide to stick with 4 -- and those were a 2"

Quote:
I think $170 each A3 is outrageous, but the sheer xmax and tricky design justifies the cost.
It does have xbl and does do bass... and knowing Wiggins it is probably pretty flat. It is really inefficient thou. Rules out using the best amps.

Question is, how does it do mid & top. My current 3" favorite is my FF85KeN. The difference between it and the Audience buys a lot of nice bass driver. I hope i can make the Alpair 6 do as well or better.

Quote:
Too bad the alpair 5 has a 100mm frame size.
One of the things i like about Mark Audio is that they seem to be prepared to listen and respond. Alpair 6 is available in rectangulasr basket.

dave
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Old 1st April 2009, 11:16 PM   #7
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Hiya Dave !!!!!!!!!!!

In the 7th veil nonsuch 4 (as far as I know), all 4 drivers are run wide open at the same time.
He was adamant about any parts in the path mucking up the sound.
He even was against crossing them low for excursion protection purposes.
And I assume, zero baffle step also.
It's too bad that the passive parts add some haze.
But we choose our priorities and tolerate their weaknesses.
Speed, clairity, detail, at the expense of medium to high volume levels.

And yes, Bcherry stuck with 4 x 2" jordans back when I was tag posting with him.
But he added a bit of passive hf boost also, (similar to the css xbl 4 driver array).
Everyone that heard them (bcherry) loved them.
Longer jordan arrays added more dynamics but mucked up the highs.
And the cost skyrocketed with bunchs of un-cheap drivers.

There was a pair of diy 4 driver array 2" bandors for sale on audiogon a month back.
They didn't sell. Seems this is a very small niche for the micro driver thing.

Someone else (if I remember correctly) listened to the Audience lsa4 versus the 8 array and 16 array and said that the 4 sounded best in the highs.

You're playing with the alpair 6 ?
The alpair 10 comments have been very positive versus the jordan jx92s.
And they are on sale for $109 USA dollars now (from $129).
But that is a different animal than the micro stuff.

A response about the alpair 5 on loudspeaker forum here was interesting that explained how the small drivers work well for Japanese music because over here (and europe) the music is bass oriented instead of strings and flutes. And their homes are more anechoic (paper walls) versus ours echoic (wood, drywall, plastar).

Seems to me, the alpair 5 may be an option with its 1.5 gram cone. 3 of those in a line array may be interesting.

Norman

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Old 2nd April 2009, 06:49 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by norman bates
In the 7th veil nonsuch 4 (as far as I know), all 4 drivers are run wide open at the same time.
He was adamant about any parts in the path mucking up the sound.
I'm pretty sure you could just completely disconnect the top & bottom (listen to just 2) or switch to all 4.

Quote:
You're playing with the alpair 6 ?
The alpair 10 comments have been very positive versus the jordan jx92s.
I have 5/6/10, but so far have only actually listened to the CHR70. It will also be my experimental driver for modding. I also have 2 pair of J6T (A5 precursor). I've already done 1 set up and have been playing an odd pair in my office for the last while. Need to haul them upstairs and compare them. Just not enuff hours in the day.

dave
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Old 2nd April 2009, 06:51 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by norman bates
The a3 driver has a 70mm wide frame.
4 in a vertical stack make an 11" long array.
82mm. 82 x 4 = 328mm = 12.91"

dabe
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Old 2nd April 2009, 11:27 AM   #10
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ah yes, 70mm = cutout, 83mm or so is the frame.

The 2"x3" has a 2" frame.
The 2" w2-803sm has a 2.25" frame.

I think the bandors are 2.5" frame.

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