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Old 21st March 2009, 02:40 AM   #21
brsanko is offline brsanko  United States
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The biggest advantage of a horn is dynamics! if you put your speakers in a horn going down to 80hz or so the bass will sound so dynamic you'll never want to listen to anything else again. The Dayton RS10HO sounds fantastic in a .75 cuft ported box and gets very low and clean (31hz or so). That combind with horns with 8" or even 6.5" divers down to 80hz makes an absolutely fantastic combo! I haven't heard an of the AN drivers yet but I have heard the Fostex 4" and 8" drivers in several horns and can't imagine what the advantage of a 10" or 12" would be but then I never imagined how good these horns would sound either so I'm not going to dicorage you from trying them.
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Old 21st March 2009, 03:39 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scottmoose

FWIW, as a personal choice, I'd probably look at going with an AN10 or FE206E, sealed, and cross to 15in HE woofers either at 200Hz or 500Hz depending on where your priorities lie, at least 2nd order. Assuming that's a little OTT for you, then I'd probably end up with an AN10 or FE207E in a BR, and support with (preferably) twin subs. That way you won't need an especially low tuning for the main units, which is all to the good.
This is the heart of my question! Assuming wood working skills are more than adequate, If I was to use a LF unit (either sub. or woofer) do full range speakers generally sound their best ( I know its opinion, but ...) in sealed (don't see many plans around for those?), BR , TL MLTQWT open baffle...
Is there any consensus.
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Old 21st March 2009, 03:46 AM   #23
brsanko is offline brsanko  United States
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Most fullrange units are of a low q design so the bass response can be lean in sealed, ported, or OB designs and typiclly rolls off below 150-200 hz. If you want your sub to be nondirectional (i.e. if you don't want to be able to tell the bass isn't coming from your main speakers) they really should crossover with the sub at or below 80hz. A horn design can give you very good and extremely dynamic punchy response down to that frequency without being ungodly large. That's what I would recommend. I could gve you some design suggestions if you know what driver you want and how big you would like your cabinet to be.
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Old 21st March 2009, 11:33 AM   #24
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Actually, most FR drivers do not have the degree of electro-mechanical damping that you suggest. Manufacturer specs. are typically optimistic in the extreme (i.e. 'fictional') so many do better in sealed boxes than you might realise.

As for consensus, nope, none of that, just different opinions based upon different criteria; we're back to which compromises a person is willing to accept. FWIW though, if you're planning on running woofers up to 200Hz - 500Hz, there's little reason to use the wide-band driver in a vented enclosure; sealed or dipole (depening on which presentation you prefer) are the way forward. If you wish to run the wide-band unit lower in frequency of course, that opens things up & the world is your oyster; BR variations (including most back-horns); QW designs; tapped, mass-loaded conical horns (often called ML TQWT) & so on & so forth. They all have their advantages & disadvantages.

Theoretically, a horn is the optimal way of loading a driver and can have a dramatic effect upon the presentation. The LF gain it provides can improve the low frequency dynamic headroom in a well designed example through reduced cone excursion for a given power input. Transient handling may also be improved by the reduced excursion / improved load on the driver (in a decent design) in comparison to some other enclosure types.

As for larger units, like anything else, they have their advantages & disadvantages. The greater cone-area means they can shift more air, and they are usually (but not invariably) more efficient. OTOH, typically, the larger you go, the more compromises entailed with the midband / HF, so YMMV as always.
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Old 21st March 2009, 08:18 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scottmoose
if you're planning on running woofers up to 200Hz - 500Hz, there's little reason to use the wide-band driver in a vented enclosure; sealed or dipole (depening on which presentation you prefer) are the way forward.
Or aperiodic midrange TL (1/2 or 1/4 wl)

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Old 21st March 2009, 11:07 PM   #26
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Good point. Should do everything sealed does, with an easier impedance load.
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Old 22nd March 2009, 06:24 AM   #27
hm is offline hm  Europe
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Hello,

"sealed, and cross to 15in HE woofers either at 200Hz or 500Hz "

IMO you get a problem, a sub must cut at 100 Hz (most18dB),
Kammerton a is 440 Hz, voices go down ~100 Hz,
and you have of a point of a lot of music notes,
a change of material, acceleration, area, mass, and a
crossover, passive with all negativ possibility.

IF you want it for max SPL, than try better a FAST
concept, than you get also a necessary 40 cm wide baffle
to create enough mids for a 8" FR.

For HIFI i prefer sats down to ~100 Hz

FE206 measurement
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Old 22nd March 2009, 10:27 AM   #28
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Sigh. I said woofers Horst. Woofers. Not subwoofers. I said that specifically because most subwoofers are useless above 100Hz. Hell, a lot are useless above about 80Hz due to excessive voice coil inductance (and many other reasons). And when I say high efficiency 15in woofers, I'm talking about Eminence, JBL, Fostex, Selenium etc units.

For the rest, it depends on the objective for the design.

If you require the least audible XO possible, then as it happens, I (mostly) agree with you. It needs to be at 200Hz or lower, outside the midrange. That's why I said 'at [or below] 200Hz.'

However, there are other valid design criterions. Say a person values power-handling, and is willing to accept a slightly more obvious transition between the drivers in order to gain more dynamic headroom. If one looks at the typical power distribution of a symphony orchestra by frequency, we observe that most of the power demands are below 500Hz. Therefore, 500Hz is a sensible XO point in such cases. Which is why I mentioned it, and also stated that the optimal XO point is one '...depending where your priorities lie.'
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