Plain and simple, my introduction to full range has corrupted my ears and now my elaborate car audio system sounds like ***. I have a processor with a fully parametric EQ, digital crossover, and time alignment, but I cannot seem to get the focus that comes so effortlessly out of my frugel horns with eNabled FE126e's.
So has anyone experimented with full range drivers in their cars? Obviously I don't expect them to play down to 50Hz, but if I could get them to cover 150Hz-10KHz with authority the rest of my system could pick up the slack.
How well would some of the 4" Fostex drivers work in a sealed fiberglass enclosure like what I could install in my car kickpanels? Specifically, what volume would I need and how low will they play?
So has anyone experimented with full range drivers in their cars? Obviously I don't expect them to play down to 50Hz, but if I could get them to cover 150Hz-10KHz with authority the rest of my system could pick up the slack.
How well would some of the 4" Fostex drivers work in a sealed fiberglass enclosure like what I could install in my car kickpanels? Specifically, what volume would I need and how low will they play?
Be careful what you use on your dash or anywhere the speaker will be facing upwards. Many fullrange drivers have an open voicecoil and the cone will act like a funnel to direct dirt and debris right into the voicecoil motor which will quickly damage the driver. I hope to experiment with a fullrange driver in my car soon but it will be on the door or kick panel like you mentioned above.
Don't forget that most automobiles/trucks, etc provide a very harsh environment for loudspeakers. Constant vibration, extremes of temperature and humidity, and to overcome the road noise, they tend to be played at much higher actual SPL's to achieve the same subjective volumes in most homes.
Much of the engineering challenge in designing mobile electronics and speakers is to ensure their physical ruggedness and reliability, and of course to tailor frequency response and power handling parameters to very special acoustic requirements. One of the primary failure modes with car speaker systems is failure of passive crossover components due to excessive power - overheated padding resistors and exploded capacitors.
I don't doubt that you could get excellent results from "home" full range drivers costing far less than specialty mobile products, just don't be surprised if they don't last very long. Pro PA gear might well be another consideration.
Much of the engineering challenge in designing mobile electronics and speakers is to ensure their physical ruggedness and reliability, and of course to tailor frequency response and power handling parameters to very special acoustic requirements. One of the primary failure modes with car speaker systems is failure of passive crossover components due to excessive power - overheated padding resistors and exploded capacitors.
I don't doubt that you could get excellent results from "home" full range drivers costing far less than specialty mobile products, just don't be surprised if they don't last very long. Pro PA gear might well be another consideration.
I tend to agree with what's above. Plus, with car and road noise, you have to decide what it's worth.
A friend of mine has one of the best car audio systems I've heard. I know he just used separate components, with a woofer and tweeters, plus a sub. This is all run through a very nice system with large capacitors, digital this and that, etc.
I'd think upgrading all of the components will get you farther than trying to make Fostex work, as they're just not intended for this usage.
I cool idea and fun to play with, but...
On another note, have you fully sound proofed your doors, etc? There's a lot more to car audio than just the parts and pieces.
Best of luck.
A friend of mine has one of the best car audio systems I've heard. I know he just used separate components, with a woofer and tweeters, plus a sub. This is all run through a very nice system with large capacitors, digital this and that, etc.
I'd think upgrading all of the components will get you farther than trying to make Fostex work, as they're just not intended for this usage.
I cool idea and fun to play with, but...
On another note, have you fully sound proofed your doors, etc? There's a lot more to car audio than just the parts and pieces.
Best of luck.
One way to find out is to try a pair of fostex ff85 , temporarily make a small cardboard box and place the box with the driver on each corner of the dash , aiming them on optimal direction. Cut 300hz or above, Use your door mid bass and your subs for lower freq. duties.
Try it for a week or 2 and find out if you like or not, and report about it here
. Cause I've been toying with that Idea on my car too , but havent got time due to busy schedule.
Note: placing the FR speaker in the dash might get you clearer sound than on the KP, Which you wont be needing to wind up the volume as much. The enclusure doesnt need to be big, cause the driver will be playing 300hz and above only.
Try it for a week or 2 and find out if you like or not, and report about it here
. Cause I've been toying with that Idea on my car too , but havent got time due to busy schedule.Note: placing the FR speaker in the dash might get you clearer sound than on the KP, Which you wont be needing to wind up the volume as much. The enclusure doesnt need to be big, cause the driver will be playing 300hz and above only.
These books offer practical advice:
Killer car stereo on a budget by Daniel L Ferguson
Car stereo speaker projects illustrated by Daniel L Ferguson
I used the "Killer" book to make versions of his systems,
I have used full range speakers, BUT always in conjunction with a high pass filter.
This will allow the FR's to play louder because they will only be thermal limited and not suffer from over-excursion trying to play bass octaves.
I prefer not to put any HF drivers down low ( where my ears aren't)
One possibility - A Tang Band W4-1052SD 4" 4ohm fits in a very small sealed or B/R.
Chops became addicted the other way... he got FE103 for his car, and was spoiled by listening to the cardboard break-in boxes (he now has FE126eN in the same box).
If you can fit them, they will probably work (i'd tend to avoid doors -- if possible i'd build separate boxes) ... many home drivers have 8 ohm impedance, cars (because of the batteries) tend to like less. I would echo using them as a midtweeter and maintaining your existing kit below ~300-400 Hz.
If you go with the fostex FF85 or FE83 you'll want to at least puzzlecoat them for environmental reasons (ignoring the fact that it makes them sound better -- as you already have spotted fever the 1st production batch of FF85KeN should be done by week's end)
Looking at the Fostex, the FE83 is a touch more efficient, the FF85 gos lower in a smaller box.
The Alpair have treated metal cones which should give them more tolerence of extreme humidity (but maybe not temperature). The plastic frames are good for home, they should offer a touch more vibration resistance, but may be more temp sensitive. The bezels (at least on the A5) are quite big, they are less efficient, but they get away with a smaller box.
dave
If you can fit them, they will probably work (i'd tend to avoid doors -- if possible i'd build separate boxes) ... many home drivers have 8 ohm impedance, cars (because of the batteries) tend to like less. I would echo using them as a midtweeter and maintaining your existing kit below ~300-400 Hz.
If you go with the fostex FF85 or FE83 you'll want to at least puzzlecoat them for environmental reasons (ignoring the fact that it makes them sound better -- as you already have spotted fever the 1st production batch of FF85KeN should be done by week's end)
Looking at the Fostex, the FE83 is a touch more efficient, the FF85 gos lower in a smaller box.
The Alpair have treated metal cones which should give them more tolerence of extreme humidity (but maybe not temperature). The plastic frames are good for home, they should offer a touch more vibration resistance, but may be more temp sensitive. The bezels (at least on the A5) are quite big, they are less efficient, but they get away with a smaller box.
dave
For reference, my current system in my Mazdaspeed6 is...
Factory Bose radio, normally sends 2v pre-out signal to bose amp is redirected to a PPI DCX-730 processor. I have 4 40w channels to work with, 2 85w channels, and 1 500w channel. These are on high quality DLS amplifiers. Tweeters are made by TBI and are currently mounted in sail panels (40w each 5KHz-20KHz). Woofers are DLS Iridium 6.5"s mounted in the stock door locations (85w each 70Hz-5KHz). Subwoofer is a 12" DLS OA12 mounted free-air on the rear deck (500w 20Hz-70Hz). The front doors are deadened with a layer of raammat (similar to dynamat) and a layer of 1/4" closed cell foam.
So the system is complete, and high quality, but there is no focus to the sound at all. I can do a pretty good job leveling the output with an RTA and the DCX processor. It's great and extremely dynamic but I feel the left and right is working against each other. I've had lots of people tell me it is a great sounding system, but after putting many hours on my frugelhorns I am no longer convinced. I've tried reversing the polarity on speakers, tuning left/right separately instead of together, using sweeps vs pink noise, etc etc. But nothing brings the focus in to a center image over the dash.
I also have in my basement a pair of DLS 3" Iridium domes. These reportedly play from 350-400Hz up to 6-7KHz. I had them in my last car and loved the amount of detail and ambience they added to music but I never got around to installing them in this car. They never sounded as good as my FE126e's though.
Factory Bose radio, normally sends 2v pre-out signal to bose amp is redirected to a PPI DCX-730 processor. I have 4 40w channels to work with, 2 85w channels, and 1 500w channel. These are on high quality DLS amplifiers. Tweeters are made by TBI and are currently mounted in sail panels (40w each 5KHz-20KHz). Woofers are DLS Iridium 6.5"s mounted in the stock door locations (85w each 70Hz-5KHz). Subwoofer is a 12" DLS OA12 mounted free-air on the rear deck (500w 20Hz-70Hz). The front doors are deadened with a layer of raammat (similar to dynamat) and a layer of 1/4" closed cell foam.
So the system is complete, and high quality, but there is no focus to the sound at all. I can do a pretty good job leveling the output with an RTA and the DCX processor. It's great and extremely dynamic but I feel the left and right is working against each other. I've had lots of people tell me it is a great sounding system, but after putting many hours on my frugelhorns I am no longer convinced. I've tried reversing the polarity on speakers, tuning left/right separately instead of together, using sweeps vs pink noise, etc etc. But nothing brings the focus in to a center image over the dash.
I also have in my basement a pair of DLS 3" Iridium domes. These reportedly play from 350-400Hz up to 6-7KHz. I had them in my last car and loved the amount of detail and ambience they added to music but I never got around to installing them in this car. They never sounded as good as my FE126e's though.
the thing with speakers that marketed for Cars is most of them are crap
and given the environment, its really hard job to accomodate good sound and soundstaging without heavily corrected with Time Alignment and EQ.
i listened to many, but it seems none of them have a place in my memory or heart
Pioneer have ODR, which is all digital from the head unit until amps.
Zapco also have similar with their amps.
I heard some scanspeak, morel, eton in the car setup, but its really nothing compare to home.
So its a though challenge to get the sound right with the right money
forgive me my rant, its all has to do with searching the reasonable audio system in the car for many years, but still haven't found it yet.
Cheers
and given the environment, its really hard job to accomodate good sound and soundstaging without heavily corrected with Time Alignment and EQ.
i listened to many, but it seems none of them have a place in my memory or heart
Pioneer have ODR, which is all digital from the head unit until amps.
Zapco also have similar with their amps.
I heard some scanspeak, morel, eton in the car setup, but its really nothing compare to home.
So its a though challenge to get the sound right with the right money
forgive me my rant, its all has to do with searching the reasonable audio system in the car for many years, but still haven't found it yet.
Cheers
planet10 said:
This is very true and highly accurate!
_henry_ said:the thing with speakers that marketed for Cars is most of them are crap
So its a though challenge to get the sound right with the right money
Sure, a lot of them are crap, but the same can be said of home audio as well. If you know what you're looking for, you can find some real gems out there in the car audio world for not too much money.
As for my car system, I have a pair of Rainbow W 165 Germanium 6.5" drivers in the doors covering 60Hz - 1.5kHz @ 2nd order. In the dash locations, I'm using a pair of home audio Dayton DC28F-8 1-1/8" soft dome tweeters from 1.5kHz @ 4th order on up.
The mid-tweet crossover points are taken care of via my JL Audio 300/4v2 amp, the Rainbow's 60Hz roll-off is taken care of via my new Kenwood Excelon KDC-X592 head unit. Fine tuning is done with the Kenwood's built-in PEQ.
The combined results of this setup is staggering to say the least! As simple as it is, I have never heard a front stage so full, natural, clean and dynamic sounding in a vehicle before, and I've been to plenty of IASCA and USAC shows before.
Funny thing is, I still haven't decided on a subwoofer system yet. I have the amp and Epicenter for it, but no driver(s) or enclosure plans. Too many projects, not enough money and/or time.
I have (4) Visaton BG 17's in my car.
Previously I had some 2way Infinity's.
Unfortunately I also changed the receiver. So it's not a controlled experiemnt.
The Visaton's seem to have more punch and presence. While the Infinity's were very mild and pulled back.
Not a huge difference in my opinion. Neither is preferred, just different.
Previously I had some 2way Infinity's.
Unfortunately I also changed the receiver. So it's not a controlled experiemnt.
The Visaton's seem to have more punch and presence. While the Infinity's were very mild and pulled back.
Not a huge difference in my opinion. Neither is preferred, just different.
marchel said:
Unfortunately, I never got that far with them to install them in my car. When I did try to, the magnets were too large and deep, hitting the air vent duct work inside the dash preventing them to ever reach the mounting surface.
After hearing what those little FE103's are capable of, I know they would sound excellent in my car though. Who knows, maybe I'll build up some baffles for them and put them in one of these days. You never can tell what I might do around here! LOL
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