I've been reading everything I can find about OB's on many sites.
for the full range driver I see people using antique 50 cent drivers exclaiming how wonderfull they sound, and I've seen plenty of people using very expensive drivers. On one site it was stated that for a good OB speaker you just need three things, high X max, low fs, and high Q.
I have found these in modern day speakers from parts express, in the $20 - $50 range. Would have to be better than some speaker pulled from a 75 year old western electric tube radio?
Also I see people using Fostex drivers for full range. But when I look at the response curves for these drivers they are down 10 dB at 20 KHz.
Some people are making OB with a tweeter, why wouldn't everyone?
Thanks in advance for your help
Paul
for the full range driver I see people using antique 50 cent drivers exclaiming how wonderfull they sound, and I've seen plenty of people using very expensive drivers. On one site it was stated that for a good OB speaker you just need three things, high X max, low fs, and high Q.
I have found these in modern day speakers from parts express, in the $20 - $50 range. Would have to be better than some speaker pulled from a 75 year old western electric tube radio?
Also I see people using Fostex drivers for full range. But when I look at the response curves for these drivers they are down 10 dB at 20 KHz.
Some people are making OB with a tweeter, why wouldn't everyone?
Thanks in advance for your help
Paul
Probably because not everyone is bothered about the extreme top end. Including myself. It's almost entirely harmonics, and too much energy in the HF just gives me a pounding headache. In addition, given that most people (especially men) are extremely lucky if they can hear up to 20KHz much past the age of 30, it renders the extension somewhat moot.
Another consideration is that a flat FR all the way to, or past, 20kHz may not be pleasing to the listener. Some years back, on the old Bass List, John Koval conducted a number of tests on groups of people and found, IIRC, that most actually seemed to prefer a rolled off treble response compared to a flat response.
Little did these unsuspecting people (various ages and gender) know that they had answered incorrectly
However, YMMV.
Best Regards,
TerryO
Little did these unsuspecting people (various ages and gender) know that they had answered incorrectly
However, YMMV.
Best Regards,
TerryO
Yes, but any answers from people using moderately priced drivers?
Will an OB design sound good using $50 - $100 dollar drivers instead of the much more expensive drivers Fostex, Jordan, Lowther.
Or will a OB design more easily show the flaws of the driver than say a comparably priced ported speaker (If I was to make one!)
Will an OB design sound good using $50 - $100 dollar drivers instead of the much more expensive drivers Fostex, Jordan, Lowther.
Or will a OB design more easily show the flaws of the driver than say a comparably priced ported speaker (If I was to make one!)
I do not believe you can do an OB with just one driver running full range. I recommend at least a two way for OB.
One OB design that people seem to like is the Eminence Alpha 15A mated with a Fostex FE-87E. The crososver should be at about 200 Hz and the baffle size should be 20" wide and 38" tall. Total cost is below $400.
One OB design that people seem to like is the Eminence Alpha 15A mated with a Fostex FE-87E. The crososver should be at about 200 Hz and the baffle size should be 20" wide and 38" tall. Total cost is below $400.
pforeman said:
Three questions, three answers:
1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Yes/ No (It depends on what the "flaw" is)
BTW: Please do not equate cost with sound quality, it's the mark of the uninformed newbie. We've seen 49 cent drivers that measured better than $49.00 drivers and sounded every bit as good, or better.
Best Regards,
TerryO
>>> Will an OB design sound good using $50 - $100 dollar drivers instead of the much more expensive drivers Fostex, Jordan, Lowther.
Someone in my office brought in a pair of old speakers. They sounded terrible and were very cheaply made. I broke out the back of the speaker to remove and replace with better components and to brace the cabinet. Decided to listen to the speaker without the back and thought they were so musical and pleasant to listen too all we did was break out the back of the other one and cover it up with a screen. He's been listening to them since in his new media room, connected to a Sonic Impact amp. He loves his system now but hated it before.
We learned cheap can sound good. Probably an old hi Qts driver in that sealed box. Just needed to break out the back. Bass was fine as was everything else. Looked like a $5 driver to me.
If you want to try OB i don't think it's a bad idea to try one of the Goldwoods with proper OB specs. You can add a tweeter if you feel they don't extend into the treble enough and you can add a subwoofer too. DIY speaker building is a never ending process. Enjoy it!
Someone in my office brought in a pair of old speakers. They sounded terrible and were very cheaply made. I broke out the back of the speaker to remove and replace with better components and to brace the cabinet. Decided to listen to the speaker without the back and thought they were so musical and pleasant to listen too all we did was break out the back of the other one and cover it up with a screen. He's been listening to them since in his new media room, connected to a Sonic Impact amp. He loves his system now but hated it before.
We learned cheap can sound good. Probably an old hi Qts driver in that sealed box. Just needed to break out the back. Bass was fine as was everything else. Looked like a $5 driver to me.
If you want to try OB i don't think it's a bad idea to try one of the Goldwoods with proper OB specs. You can add a tweeter if you feel they don't extend into the treble enough and you can add a subwoofer too. DIY speaker building is a never ending process. Enjoy it!
Hi Zilla,
I did the same thing with a cheap pair I got at St. Vinnie's. It sounded so much better as an OB that I attached a molded plastic speaker terminal cup to the inside corner of the box and haven't done a thing to it since. It has real nice alnico magnets on the midwoofers and the cone tweeters although the measured response of the tweeter is a few dBs higher than the woofer. I suppose I should really spend a bit of time and get this worked up.
I think I spent about a dollar for the pair. Wait! I also spent $.25 each for the terminal cups at a local close-out, so make it a total of approximately $1.50 for a really decent sounding pair.
Best Regards,
TerryO
I did the same thing with a cheap pair I got at St. Vinnie's. It sounded so much better as an OB that I attached a molded plastic speaker terminal cup to the inside corner of the box and haven't done a thing to it since. It has real nice alnico magnets on the midwoofers and the cone tweeters although the measured response of the tweeter is a few dBs higher than the woofer. I suppose I should really spend a bit of time and get this worked up.
I think I spent about a dollar for the pair. Wait! I also spent $.25 each for the terminal cups at a local close-out, so make it a total of approximately $1.50 for a really decent sounding pair.
Best Regards,
TerryO
I picked up neo P-Audio 15" coax for $70 each on closeout and they can play "car bass" tracks ok - but they're not "fullrange". - someone who listens primarily to old vocals might get by with larger fullrange speakers - theres a lot of compromise and possibly fun for those with active imaginations -- I'm not really hip on open baffle speakers but have tried Ciare's CH250 with double magnet - no bass dynamics, ragged HF - not near as good as coax in Karlson with harpsichord, cello, drums, machine gun (soundcheck cd) but not bad on Dean Martin :^) -- what are really good new open baffle speakers in a reasonable price range? Fostex rules the affordable roost for blh
I own a lot of different full range drivers.
I also own a lot of different woofers.
Over the past couple of years I have been putting them together in
various combinations in a variety of OB's of different sizes and shapes.
Many of the drivers are sub $100. The most expensive get into the
$2,000 to $5,000 range.
They all sound very good, but it's true that the expensive ones tend
to sound better.
The caveat: I use active crossovers and some mild equalization to
get what I want - saves me a lot of time and trouble.
I also own a lot of different woofers.
Over the past couple of years I have been putting them together in
various combinations in a variety of OB's of different sizes and shapes.
Many of the drivers are sub $100. The most expensive get into the
$2,000 to $5,000 range.
They all sound very good, but it's true that the expensive ones tend
to sound better.
The caveat: I use active crossovers and some mild equalization to
get what I want - saves me a lot of time and trouble.
Nelson,
I wouldn't be surprised if you also had an amp that was better than my gainclone.
What I have seen at our speaker contest ("The Puget Sound! DIY Speaker Contest") over the years, and the point I'm trying to make, is that the cost of the componets and drivers has very little to do with the quality of the resulting sound.
Best Regards,
TerryO
I wouldn't be surprised if you also had an amp that was better than my gainclone.
What I have seen at our speaker contest ("The Puget Sound! DIY Speaker Contest") over the years, and the point I'm trying to make, is that the cost of the componets and drivers has very little to do with the quality of the resulting sound.
Best Regards,
TerryO
it depends on what you believe are the "best"
Having not heard a great number of FR drivers, it's pretty tough to come up with "best". All make some sort of trade-offs. It depends on what trade-offs you find more appealing.
Regarding vintage drivers, there are some very good ones, available for not very much money. But I would generally suggest new as the safest bet.
I have had very good success with the "JE Labs" style OB, and yes with a single driver. Not to suggest any are wrong (including myself), but I believe one can use a single driver and end up with an enjoyable OB speaker.
stew
Having not heard a great number of FR drivers, it's pretty tough to come up with "best". All make some sort of trade-offs. It depends on what trade-offs you find more appealing.
Regarding vintage drivers, there are some very good ones, available for not very much money. But I would generally suggest new as the safest bet.
I have had very good success with the "JE Labs" style OB, and yes with a single driver. Not to suggest any are wrong (including myself), but I believe one can use a single driver and end up with an enjoyable OB speaker.
stew
Attachments
I think it would depend on what is considered 'acceptable' in performance / frequency response terms, to say nothing of outright SPLs.
Generally, I'd concur with Martin, on the principle that a single unsupported FR driver (of the types available these days at any rate) isn't going to give a reasonably balanced response down to ~40Hz, let alone at a half decent SPL. Then again, if you're not too fussed about having much LF or are supporting it with a couple of subs or whatever, something like an 8in Visaton B200 or Audio Nirvana Super 12, which have mass-corners of ~120Hz - 130Hz would probably do a passable job on undemanding material in a modest space, and at modest levels. YMMV as always of course.
Generally, I'd concur with Martin, on the principle that a single unsupported FR driver (of the types available these days at any rate) isn't going to give a reasonably balanced response down to ~40Hz, let alone at a half decent SPL. Then again, if you're not too fussed about having much LF or are supporting it with a couple of subs or whatever, something like an 8in Visaton B200 or Audio Nirvana Super 12, which have mass-corners of ~120Hz - 130Hz would probably do a passable job on undemanding material in a modest space, and at modest levels. YMMV as always of course.
acceptable performance....
Scott, et al:
I believe there is some "magic" in the "JE Labs" style OB, and the mods that I had made to it represent a fairly interesting approach. The red in the attached picture are the mods made to the baffle plans that I did. I have proposed this to a few folks here and elsewhere , and they had used the additions to good effect.
A couple of points:
These baffles are similar in dimensions to the Wharfedale SFB/3 and the Quad ESLs. Unfortunately they do dominate a room. The modified OB really helps, it extends the bass and adds some "body" to the music. Still no tactile bass "thump" of box styled enclosures, but very nice to listen to. With the mods Dave made to the FR8s, I have no complaints with the top end, but have toyed with the idea of adding a super tweeter of some sort.And they do disappear. (sort of).
In my room's present orientation, I may be able to get away with these. I've also contemplated mounting them in the same way that Faye Dunaway had her ESLs mounted...from the ceiling. But my cats would think its a hotel or something and climb all over them.
I am not arguing with Messrs Pass and King or any. I think there are some drivers that can provide an enjoyable listening experience,but you do need an amplifier able to control them. I know in the "Spirits", the Jordan JS92X drivers are excellent, but as they are mounted 3'+ from the floor, there is no possibility of any bass from them, regardless how much power is applied to them.
stew
Scott, et al:
I believe there is some "magic" in the "JE Labs" style OB, and the mods that I had made to it represent a fairly interesting approach. The red in the attached picture are the mods made to the baffle plans that I did. I have proposed this to a few folks here and elsewhere , and they had used the additions to good effect.
A couple of points:
- I sit about 10' away
- the baffles are canted back approx 10∘
- I had driven these OBs with 125 watts of V-Fet power (but only used about 10 of them!)
These baffles are similar in dimensions to the Wharfedale SFB/3 and the Quad ESLs. Unfortunately they do dominate a room. The modified OB really helps, it extends the bass and adds some "body" to the music. Still no tactile bass "thump" of box styled enclosures, but very nice to listen to. With the mods Dave made to the FR8s, I have no complaints with the top end, but have toyed with the idea of adding a super tweeter of some sort.And they do disappear. (sort of).
In my room's present orientation, I may be able to get away with these. I've also contemplated mounting them in the same way that Faye Dunaway had her ESLs mounted...from the ceiling. But my cats would think its a hotel or something and climb all over them.
I am not arguing with Messrs Pass and King or any. I think there are some drivers that can provide an enjoyable listening experience,but you do need an amplifier able to control them. I know in the "Spirits", the Jordan JS92X drivers are excellent, but as they are mounted 3'+ from the floor, there is no possibility of any bass from them, regardless how much power is applied to them.
stew
Attachments
It appears to me that many (most) of the commercial open baffle speakers/speaker kits sold are using conventional(?) drivers with tweaters and sealed or ported woofers.
Is this because it can be made to sound better, or because they can use regular (less expensive) drivers when they do it this way
Paul
Is this because it can be made to sound better, or because they can use regular (less expensive) drivers when they do it this way
Paul
better sound?
I think it can be difficult to get acceptable bass from an OB speaker. so many use additional woofers or separate, conventional subs to get the bass. With the speaker that I posted above, there is no real need as long as a high-ish Qts speaker is selected. It is a rather large baffle (35"X31"), and the driver is centred only 13.5" off of the floor.
Many OB speakers do use a separate sub, but I'm not sure I'd say "most".
stew
I think it can be difficult to get acceptable bass from an OB speaker. so many use additional woofers or separate, conventional subs to get the bass. With the speaker that I posted above, there is no real need as long as a high-ish Qts speaker is selected. It is a rather large baffle (35"X31"), and the driver is centred only 13.5" off of the floor.
Many OB speakers do use a separate sub, but I'm not sure I'd say "most".
stew
Stew,
I looked at the picture of the front of your JE Labs OB and noticed that it appears that you've ported the unclosure for increased bass.
Seriously, I also bridged the top and bottom of the braces much like you have although I have installed the lower brace in a horizontal orientation.
Best Regards,
TerryO
I looked at the picture of the front of your JE Labs OB and noticed that it appears that you've ported the unclosure for increased bass.
Seriously, I also bridged the top and bottom of the braces much like you have although I have installed the lower brace in a horizontal orientation.
Best Regards,
TerryO
Terry...OB suggestions
How have you been? Hope all is well for all the baby pigeons...
The front of the baffles are not ported. I had originally used the J10 and Seas tweeters in them. I had to get the wire to the tweeter from behind the panel. I used a desk cutout, "cable plug" to fit the hole as I thought it would allow me to change drivers, etc, without having to do a bunch of revisions. When not used with the Oxford/Seas coaxials (of my own construction), The opening is not required. Isimply didn't trust myself to put some holes in the old Oxfords to run the leads to the Seas tweeters, as they are a little fragile (50-ish years old). The downside is that it looks a little stupid, but I can rotate part of the plug to close off the hole completely. The "supra" baffles were just to allow me to install the 8" Hemps where the 10" Oxfords were before.
Terry:The lower brace in the vertical orientation as pictured does lots to help increase the bass. Try this for an experiment. Cut a piece of whatever scrap you have (even solid wood) that is 5 or 6" X the dimensions between your "uprights". Attach as pictured--result: increased Bass (particularly if you are using the same size baffle as I am). And be prepared to give em a little juice (not too much).
What drivers did you use? Which plans? Or baffle dimensions?
stew
How have you been? Hope all is well for all the baby pigeons...
The front of the baffles are not ported. I had originally used the J10 and Seas tweeters in them. I had to get the wire to the tweeter from behind the panel. I used a desk cutout, "cable plug" to fit the hole as I thought it would allow me to change drivers, etc, without having to do a bunch of revisions. When not used with the Oxford/Seas coaxials (of my own construction), The opening is not required. Isimply didn't trust myself to put some holes in the old Oxfords to run the leads to the Seas tweeters, as they are a little fragile (50-ish years old). The downside is that it looks a little stupid, but I can rotate part of the plug to close off the hole completely. The "supra" baffles were just to allow me to install the 8" Hemps where the 10" Oxfords were before.
Terry:The lower brace in the vertical orientation as pictured does lots to help increase the bass. Try this for an experiment. Cut a piece of whatever scrap you have (even solid wood) that is 5 or 6" X the dimensions between your "uprights". Attach as pictured--result: increased Bass (particularly if you are using the same size baffle as I am). And be prepared to give em a little juice (not too much).
What drivers did you use? Which plans? Or baffle dimensions?
stew
Scottmoose said:
I heartily agree, please consider a quick hearing check, most of the hearing range for humans is between 30Hz and 16KHz
http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/hearing.html
another site to check is
http://lenardaudio.com/
for a little audio insight
Alfred
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