A few more thoughts
With the corners open, the rules change. Now we can settle on a reasonable sized horn set in the corner
The Opus 1, like the Klipshorn, has the bass exit in the corner, and uses the room walls as part of the horn path. If you have thin, modern construction plasterboard walls the bass will go through it, rather than be guided into the room. You should have at least a double thickness of plaster board to use this design. The real advantage is that your room becomes part of the horn, and you get powerful, fast bass down to the 30's.
The TP1 sits in the corner, but has the bass out the front and does not utilize the walls of the room. TP1 should have bass to around 40 hz. Thin walls have no effect though.
If you truly want the ultimate, go with one of these. By horn loading a PM4A you get the speed and dynamics of the DX series, but with the low level information of the alnico magnet. Best of both worlds. As much as I like the Beauhorn and a properly set up Big Fun Horn, neither can do delicacy like the PM4A.
Just to even it out a bit, some people do not like front loaded horns. They add dynamics and impact, as well as some colorations. Using a PM5A or DX4 in a Big Fun Horn will not have these colorations. It is very important to properly treat the side and rear walls when using the Big Fun Horn to prevent early reflections that smear the sound (one of the reasons why these speakers have mixed reviews). I have not directly compared the PM5A to a DX4 in this type of situation. My gut says that the DX4 will still be a bit more dynamic, and the PM5A will have more information, but the overall winner would be the PM5A for pure realism, lacking only in that last little bit of "fun factor" with big and bold music. Call this an educated guess, not a real opinion.
The Bueahorn is a great system. Rumors indicate that they have stopped production, but the web site is still up and active. Maybe someone else knows the truth.
With the corners open, the rules change. Now we can settle on a reasonable sized horn set in the corner
The Opus 1, like the Klipshorn, has the bass exit in the corner, and uses the room walls as part of the horn path. If you have thin, modern construction plasterboard walls the bass will go through it, rather than be guided into the room. You should have at least a double thickness of plaster board to use this design. The real advantage is that your room becomes part of the horn, and you get powerful, fast bass down to the 30's.
The TP1 sits in the corner, but has the bass out the front and does not utilize the walls of the room. TP1 should have bass to around 40 hz. Thin walls have no effect though.
If you truly want the ultimate, go with one of these. By horn loading a PM4A you get the speed and dynamics of the DX series, but with the low level information of the alnico magnet. Best of both worlds. As much as I like the Beauhorn and a properly set up Big Fun Horn, neither can do delicacy like the PM4A.
Just to even it out a bit, some people do not like front loaded horns. They add dynamics and impact, as well as some colorations. Using a PM5A or DX4 in a Big Fun Horn will not have these colorations. It is very important to properly treat the side and rear walls when using the Big Fun Horn to prevent early reflections that smear the sound (one of the reasons why these speakers have mixed reviews). I have not directly compared the PM5A to a DX4 in this type of situation. My gut says that the DX4 will still be a bit more dynamic, and the PM5A will have more information, but the overall winner would be the PM5A for pure realism, lacking only in that last little bit of "fun factor" with big and bold music. Call this an educated guess, not a real opinion.
The Bueahorn is a great system. Rumors indicate that they have stopped production, but the web site is still up and active. Maybe someone else knows the truth.
the bulgarian way
Hello,
You can have a look too at those following "bulgarian" design :
-helix 5000
-horn for driver ether 6
You can easily find them making a search on this forum. They are not speacilly designed for lowther (but for driver with more or less similar spec; so with some changes to the compression chamber they should work). those designs offer a very long path and are supposed to offer great bass.
They are impressive and beautifull design too in my opinion ; more beautifull (still in my opinion) than the lowther TP1 , OPUS or big fun horn.
Just my 2 cents...
Hello,
You can have a look too at those following "bulgarian" design :
-helix 5000
-horn for driver ether 6
You can easily find them making a search on this forum. They are not speacilly designed for lowther (but for driver with more or less similar spec; so with some changes to the compression chamber they should work). those designs offer a very long path and are supposed to offer great bass.
They are impressive and beautifull design too in my opinion ; more beautifull (still in my opinion) than the lowther TP1 , OPUS or big fun horn.
Just my 2 cents...
http://momchil.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/img_3461.jpg
here is some pictures of those bulgarian design...
lowther hegeman horn?
I'm not familiar with Lowthers, but this has gotten me curious. Don't know how it compares with the other candidates, but it seemed to be the hot ticket in its day. There was someone selling plans for the cabinet on eBay a couple of years ago, but I don't think they included a plan for the plaster of paris horn on top. Worth thinking about?
http://www.lowthervoigtmuseum.org.uk/lowtherHegeman.html
I'm not familiar with Lowthers, but this has gotten me curious. Don't know how it compares with the other candidates, but it seemed to be the hot ticket in its day. There was someone selling plans for the cabinet on eBay a couple of years ago, but I don't think they included a plan for the plaster of paris horn on top. Worth thinking about?
http://www.lowthervoigtmuseum.org.uk/lowtherHegeman.html
Martin Seddon's 204 front horns have been mentioned, but not his push pull horns which use those front horns and his 50hz back horns which have only one right angle fold. You may see his plans, which are free, for said horns at the link below.
A friend from Hong Kong who has heard Beauhorns on several occasions thinks the Martin's horns he heard at my home are superior in most ways. I haven't heard the Beauhorns myself but you should note Martin horns are at least 3 sizes bigger. Size does matter when trying to squeeze performance out of a single Lowther driver.
Contact Martin to hear his experience.
http://azurahorn.com/azurahorn_horns.html
A friend from Hong Kong who has heard Beauhorns on several occasions thinks the Martin's horns he heard at my home are superior in most ways. I haven't heard the Beauhorns myself but you should note Martin horns are at least 3 sizes bigger. Size does matter when trying to squeeze performance out of a single Lowther driver.
Contact Martin to hear his experience.
http://azurahorn.com/azurahorn_horns.html
good point leadsinger...
I was thinking Ronmeister nixed FLHs, but it was additional drivers he didn't want.
And what Martin calls a "push-pull" could be seen as many of the back loaded horns with front horns already shown...
--My Opinion only, YMMV, but easily the best/most high-end/most desirable Lowther implementations I've heard have been with Azurahorns. Done right, the LeCleach gets rid of so much of the coloration present in other expansions, and room treatment helps the rest. I'll never forget RMAF 2007, Lowthers in Azurahorns in one room, and in open baffles across the hall.
I was expecting the OBs to sound great, went back at least a half-dozen times. They hurt my ears, gave me a headache every time, my wife ask me why i kept going to that room that sounded so... And across the hall the music was beautiful, with the best soundstage and imaging I'd ever heard.
Caveat--very narrow sweet spot.
And that system had a woofer, wasn't PP.
Haven't heard one in a PP configuratin; may have some of the problems of backloaded horns from different soundpath lengths?
That sure is audible in the longer path horns, and really bugs some of us...
Or the PP Azurahorn may be a better compromise?
Not as long as most BLHs, but tuned low enough to work with one driver?
And being "sound is round," the round shape causes less distortion than most other (squared off) designs...
Just more thoughts.
I was thinking Ronmeister nixed FLHs, but it was additional drivers he didn't want.
And what Martin calls a "push-pull" could be seen as many of the back loaded horns with front horns already shown...
--My Opinion only, YMMV, but easily the best/most high-end/most desirable Lowther implementations I've heard have been with Azurahorns. Done right, the LeCleach gets rid of so much of the coloration present in other expansions, and room treatment helps the rest. I'll never forget RMAF 2007, Lowthers in Azurahorns in one room, and in open baffles across the hall.
I was expecting the OBs to sound great, went back at least a half-dozen times. They hurt my ears, gave me a headache every time, my wife ask me why i kept going to that room that sounded so... And across the hall the music was beautiful, with the best soundstage and imaging I'd ever heard.
Caveat--very narrow sweet spot.
And that system had a woofer, wasn't PP.
Haven't heard one in a PP configuratin; may have some of the problems of backloaded horns from different soundpath lengths?
That sure is audible in the longer path horns, and really bugs some of us...
Or the PP Azurahorn may be a better compromise?
Not as long as most BLHs, but tuned low enough to work with one driver?
And being "sound is round," the round shape causes less distortion than most other (squared off) designs...
Just more thoughts.
Azurahorn
Leadsinger, Serenechaos,
Brilliant! I've attached a small photograph for all to see what (I believe) you're referring to. When I first posted this thread, and called it no-holds-barred - which we soon found out was 'over-shooting' a little - this is the kind of design suggestion I was hoping for. Real food for thought, something outside my personal comfort-zone, and a, for me, new area to explore.
With regards to the initial discussion, where Opus 1 was the front-runner, the TP1-Isis has nudged ahead due to the type of wall in one of the two corners. The guy I'm building them for is partial to both designs so the less troublesome may as well go to the top spot...
We're not done though... Cue the Azurahorns...
Leadsinger, Serenechaos,
Brilliant! I've attached a small photograph for all to see what (I believe) you're referring to. When I first posted this thread, and called it no-holds-barred - which we soon found out was 'over-shooting' a little - this is the kind of design suggestion I was hoping for. Real food for thought, something outside my personal comfort-zone, and a, for me, new area to explore.
With regards to the initial discussion, where Opus 1 was the front-runner, the TP1-Isis has nudged ahead due to the type of wall in one of the two corners. The guy I'm building them for is partial to both designs so the less troublesome may as well go to the top spot...
We're not done though... Cue the Azurahorns...
Attachments
Azurahorns
The Azurahorns have less horn coloration than any other system that I have heard, and are a distinct notch up from the TP1 or OPUS 1 in that aspect. A clear winner for least horn coloration, most musical sound.
It would be fun to throw these in front of a pair of Big Fun Horns and have push-pull with full range, deep bass. Keep in mind that a certain amount of re-engineering would be required to make this balanced. The front horn would increase the efficiency of the front wave, and you will need to adjust the back horn for similar efficiency. The compression chamber on the Big Fun Horn is normally too large, but you want the crossover between the front horn and the rear horn as low as possible, and the large compression chamber may work here. A slightly larger throat may be required to increase the efficiency of the bass horn a bit.
hornresponse is a great program to simulate the response of various horns. Have some fun in your spare time, this is a great way to model a lot of horns without having to build them. Results are fairly accurate.
The Azurahorns have less horn coloration than any other system that I have heard, and are a distinct notch up from the TP1 or OPUS 1 in that aspect. A clear winner for least horn coloration, most musical sound.
It would be fun to throw these in front of a pair of Big Fun Horns and have push-pull with full range, deep bass. Keep in mind that a certain amount of re-engineering would be required to make this balanced. The front horn would increase the efficiency of the front wave, and you will need to adjust the back horn for similar efficiency. The compression chamber on the Big Fun Horn is normally too large, but you want the crossover between the front horn and the rear horn as low as possible, and the large compression chamber may work here. A slightly larger throat may be required to increase the efficiency of the bass horn a bit.
hornresponse is a great program to simulate the response of various horns. Have some fun in your spare time, this is a great way to model a lot of horns without having to build them. Results are fairly accurate.
Isn't that what Dave Slagle was using a few years ago...
Yeah, here's a pict: http://www.arduman.com/aa/Sayfalar/slagle/slagle.htm
big fun horn for bass, and 160hz Azura horn on top, with the natural roll-off as crossover @ 80 Hz.
Don't know what he's using now, last i heard he'd converted the Lowthers to field coil drivers?
Yeah, here's a pict: http://www.arduman.com/aa/Sayfalar/slagle/slagle.htm
big fun horn for bass, and 160hz Azura horn on top, with the natural roll-off as crossover @ 80 Hz.
Don't know what he's using now, last i heard he'd converted the Lowthers to field coil drivers?
Hi there,
Just seen this and thought I would say hi! I have a pair of Big Fun Horns with PM6as, so here are some (pretty poor) pictures, with my Living Voices as scale:
I bought them (for £250
) about a year ago from the guy who built them; he used to work in the hifi biz (for JPW at the time, IIRC). He'd just had the drivers rebuilt, but didn't have space for them.
Apparently it took a long time, on Hornresp, measuring and listening, to get the balance between the back and front response; others who have heard these attest that they are one of the better-balanced designs they have heard: it's easy not to get it that right, apparently. They were built from chunky inch-thick MDF and have the voids inside filled with concrete. They take three people to move...
Sadly I've still not had time (or, more importantly, space) to reveneer them or improve their looks. I also can't get them in the corners, but when I move house I should be able to sort both of these issues out.
Sound-wise they are probably the best speakers I have heard, although not without their faults. The bass does not go to 20Hz; Lowthers all suffer with HF issues from the whizzer, IMO, and there is a peak that hits the lower harmonics on some high instruments that can be tiring. However, that's about it: they are faster and more dynamic (micro and macro) than anything else; even the bass, which isn't weighty, is fast beyond belief.
I'm not sure that it is reasonable to expect a 'perfect' Lowther from anyone who has not spent their whole life building them! The only other thing I could imagine having is a pair of big Hornings - they use Lowthers as (wide) midband drivers, adding big bass units and cone tweeters for 5k upwards. Tommy H has been designing his Lowther-based speakers for years, and still endlessly tweaks them.
Have fun! If your client is in London, he's welcome to visit
Just seen this and thought I would say hi! I have a pair of Big Fun Horns with PM6as, so here are some (pretty poor) pictures, with my Living Voices as scale:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I bought them (for £250
) about a year ago from the guy who built them; he used to work in the hifi biz (for JPW at the time, IIRC). He'd just had the drivers rebuilt, but didn't have space for them.Apparently it took a long time, on Hornresp, measuring and listening, to get the balance between the back and front response; others who have heard these attest that they are one of the better-balanced designs they have heard: it's easy not to get it that right, apparently. They were built from chunky inch-thick MDF and have the voids inside filled with concrete. They take three people to move...
Sadly I've still not had time (or, more importantly, space) to reveneer them or improve their looks. I also can't get them in the corners, but when I move house I should be able to sort both of these issues out.
Sound-wise they are probably the best speakers I have heard, although not without their faults. The bass does not go to 20Hz; Lowthers all suffer with HF issues from the whizzer, IMO, and there is a peak that hits the lower harmonics on some high instruments that can be tiring. However, that's about it: they are faster and more dynamic (micro and macro) than anything else; even the bass, which isn't weighty, is fast beyond belief.
I'm not sure that it is reasonable to expect a 'perfect' Lowther from anyone who has not spent their whole life building them! The only other thing I could imagine having is a pair of big Hornings - they use Lowthers as (wide) midband drivers, adding big bass units and cone tweeters for 5k upwards. Tommy H has been designing his Lowther-based speakers for years, and still endlessly tweaks them.
Have fun! If your client is in London, he's welcome to visit
I had Martin's pp horns built a little over 3 years ago and Martin visited my home in 2007 while on a business trip. We share similar music tastes, both of us partial to sounds as disparate as those from Kyung Wha Chung and Tom Verlaine. By profession an engineer, one would expect measured consideration from him although the pp concept was initiated as a quick and dirty experiment to get it out of the way. Happily, it didn't.
Over the azura/le cleach front horns, the Lowther 2A (both Martin and I use the same driver) becomes both subtle and supple. Hear Victoria De Los Angeles on Falla's La Vida breve in her EMI recording of 1962 and Angel from 1966 and then sense how incredibly the Lowthers let you know how effortlessly Victoria switches in style and mood. I haven't had the same sensation listening to front firing Lowthers alone, no matter the size of the back horn. The azura front horns are truly the best things to happen to Lowthers.
With the right amp (I use a single 6BX7 wired in push pull for 4wpc) Martin's horns deliver a punchy, dynamic and holographic sound. You can add Frank Zappa and Johnny Winter to the fray and let rip and they remain unfazed. We would think that's unimaginable with Lowthers.
The back horns are not pretty but they balance out the front horns neatly enough. I think they can be improved on, though, but Martin wants to keep the size sensible and not go into obsession. You have to like that about him.
Over the azura/le cleach front horns, the Lowther 2A (both Martin and I use the same driver) becomes both subtle and supple. Hear Victoria De Los Angeles on Falla's La Vida breve in her EMI recording of 1962 and Angel from 1966 and then sense how incredibly the Lowthers let you know how effortlessly Victoria switches in style and mood. I haven't had the same sensation listening to front firing Lowthers alone, no matter the size of the back horn. The azura front horns are truly the best things to happen to Lowthers.
With the right amp (I use a single 6BX7 wired in push pull for 4wpc) Martin's horns deliver a punchy, dynamic and holographic sound. You can add Frank Zappa and Johnny Winter to the fray and let rip and they remain unfazed. We would think that's unimaginable with Lowthers.
The back horns are not pretty but they balance out the front horns neatly enough. I think they can be improved on, though, but Martin wants to keep the size sensible and not go into obsession. You have to like that about him.
I haven't heard either but I can see advantages of the following two designs. Big Carfrae Horn looks like it would fit the banker's taste. Martin's push/ pull would be my choice if I couldn't do it myself, thou as far as I know front horn doesn't help Lowther's bass weakness.
The beauty of DIY is that one doesn't have to be an investment banker to get good Lowther horns.
http://www.imagebam.com/image/13457823354636
I do not mind working with wood (I worked as Kunsttishler for Galerie Attaché in Vienna) but for my personal horns I have chosen a different technology.
The design of the horn and material used is totally mine, after testing in 2004 I put the horn specifications and technology in public domain. I made only one pair, then the mold was broken so do not confuse me with manufacturers.
The path of the horn is 3.5m long, mouth is 0.8m^2 and it is positioned against side wall, which gives good response to 50Hz then bass drops rather quickly, although those living in a la-la land would claim a much lower response. The horn is totally DIY, made at home with handyman tools. Material is custom metal powder composite. Driver - modified EX3, without back cover.
Marek
The beauty of DIY is that one doesn't have to be an investment banker to get good Lowther horns.
http://www.imagebam.com/image/13457823354636
I do not mind working with wood (I worked as Kunsttishler for Galerie Attaché in Vienna) but for my personal horns I have chosen a different technology.
The design of the horn and material used is totally mine, after testing in 2004 I put the horn specifications and technology in public domain. I made only one pair, then the mold was broken so do not confuse me with manufacturers.
The path of the horn is 3.5m long, mouth is 0.8m^2 and it is positioned against side wall, which gives good response to 50Hz then bass drops rather quickly, although those living in a la-la land would claim a much lower response. The horn is totally DIY, made at home with handyman tools. Material is custom metal powder composite. Driver - modified EX3, without back cover.
Marek
Too much to quote! Thanks for the continued involvement.
The options:
Option1
Design a Le Cléac’h horn in combination with a BLH. Brush up on the crossover theory and the usage of Hornresp (it's been a while). Once I have the contour measurements I could "place" the back horn in such a way that we have a cohesive design, that is functional as well as esthetically pleasing. A tall order, but doable...
Option 2
Build the TP1-Isis
Option 3
Build the Opus 1
With regards to the Opus 1 I do have one worry. As mentioned we do have two corners, but one of the walls has, about a meter away from the corner, large windows. I'm not sure how much of a factor that is. Estethically it's my favorite design.
Option 4
Build the Azurahorn AH-PP2
We've narrowed it down, there are some relatively easy options, but I'm drawn to experimenting with option 1.
Finally, I can't believe I did not think of contacting Lowther!
I just did, put the parameters to them, and will let you know what they suggest...
The options:
Option1
Design a Le Cléac’h horn in combination with a BLH. Brush up on the crossover theory and the usage of Hornresp (it's been a while). Once I have the contour measurements I could "place" the back horn in such a way that we have a cohesive design, that is functional as well as esthetically pleasing. A tall order, but doable...
Option 2
Build the TP1-Isis
Option 3
Build the Opus 1
With regards to the Opus 1 I do have one worry. As mentioned we do have two corners, but one of the walls has, about a meter away from the corner, large windows. I'm not sure how much of a factor that is. Estethically it's my favorite design.
Option 4
Build the Azurahorn AH-PP2
We've narrowed it down, there are some relatively easy options, but I'm drawn to experimenting with option 1.
Finally, I can't believe I did not think of contacting Lowther!
I just did, put the parameters to them, and will let you know what they suggest...
Advice from Lowther...
Back again...
As pointed out by hornophile, it's useful to contact the factory
. I did, and similar to hornophile's experience, they answered within a day!
Here you go, more food for thought:
Their advice would be to build the TP1-Isis, fitted with a PM5 if I require a PM drive unit. The PM4, due to the weight of the magnet, have support housings fitted, which would need to be removed for fitment into the Isis, which is not recommended. They also highly recommend the DX4 in the TP1.
They kindly offer to send both units, the PM5 and DX4 for me to try.
So... a little stuck
Back again...
As pointed out by hornophile, it's useful to contact the factory
. I did, and similar to hornophile's experience, they answered within a day! Here you go, more food for thought:
Their advice would be to build the TP1-Isis, fitted with a PM5 if I require a PM drive unit. The PM4, due to the weight of the magnet, have support housings fitted, which would need to be removed for fitment into the Isis, which is not recommended. They also highly recommend the DX4 in the TP1.
They kindly offer to send both units, the PM5 and DX4 for me to try.
So... a little stuck
How about going Nagaoke style!
Yep, it'll not be easy... unless...
Dave (Planet10) got in touch with me early on in the project and offered to generate a Nagaoka style design for the PM4A.
Whatever the outcome, that will prove to be a heck of a lot easier than the Opusses and TeePeeOnes... The initial sketches look BIG, easy to build... I'll certainly build a pair of those cabinets!
Furthermore...
I also asked Bert of BD-Design, an admirable company with a website worth visiting. Here you'll see a pair of my favorite loudspeakers; the Oris SWING MKII. Anyway; 1) Audiovector 2) Opus I. Bert feels the TP1 has too much coloration.
I asked Lowther why the TP1, not the Opus. They stated that with solid corners a TP1 is better, should you not have solid corners they recommend the Opus I (with the EX4). This is contrary to what I believed to be true, I thought the Opus required solid corners, the TP1 did not?
Provided Dave is able to supply a design, that will be built first, based on the reputation of the Nagaoka style designs, that may well be it. He did say, mention it... that will probably spur me to get the 3D done so that i can post it... Happy to oblige Dave!
Andrewbee said:
Yep, it'll not be easy... unless...
Dave (Planet10) got in touch with me early on in the project and offered to generate a Nagaoka style design for the PM4A.
Whatever the outcome, that will prove to be a heck of a lot easier than the Opusses and TeePeeOnes... The initial sketches look BIG, easy to build... I'll certainly build a pair of those cabinets!Furthermore...
I also asked Bert of BD-Design, an admirable company with a website worth visiting. Here you'll see a pair of my favorite loudspeakers; the Oris SWING MKII. Anyway; 1) Audiovector 2) Opus I. Bert feels the TP1 has too much coloration.
I asked Lowther why the TP1, not the Opus. They stated that with solid corners a TP1 is better, should you not have solid corners they recommend the Opus I (with the EX4). This is contrary to what I believed to be true, I thought the Opus required solid corners, the TP1 did not?
Provided Dave is able to supply a design, that will be built first, based on the reputation of the Nagaoka style designs, that may well be it. He did say, mention it... that will probably spur me to get the 3D done so that i can post it... Happy to oblige Dave!