Ill start off by saying that I have never heard a set of quality full range speakers. I am, however, very intrigued by the minimulistic approach. I am considering trying out a set of Audio Nirvana Cast Frame 8's. I would probably supplement them with a set of tweeters. Those would be powered by my ST70. I would then add powered subwoofers to pick up the bass.
I am sure that they sound great simple music, but I listen to a wide range of music that includes metal. Are the dynamics of the speaker going to fall apart when there are several tracks of distorted guitar, bass, double bass drums and crashing cymbals, and screaming vocals?
I just want to make sure these are versatile speakers before I include them in a project.
Thanks for any comments.
I am sure that they sound great simple music, but I listen to a wide range of music that includes metal. Are the dynamics of the speaker going to fall apart when there are several tracks of distorted guitar, bass, double bass drums and crashing cymbals, and screaming vocals?
I just want to make sure these are versatile speakers before I include them in a project.
Thanks for any comments.
Howdy, amigos.
True, run completely fullrange by themselves, the fullrangers will fall apart playing complex stuff at greater and greater volumes, e.g., Overture of 1812. But bring in a sub, and they can start to rock out. As you raise the cutoff frequency, e.g. to 200Hz or higher, they rock out in proportion to the cutoff.
P.S. Robert, I noticed in Stereophile's (or TAS) RMAF report that a very expensive tower speaker was using the Fostex FX120 as a midrange -- by any chance, did you happen to see/hear that when you were there?
True, run completely fullrange by themselves, the fullrangers will fall apart playing complex stuff at greater and greater volumes, e.g., Overture of 1812. But bring in a sub, and they can start to rock out. As you raise the cutoff frequency, e.g. to 200Hz or higher, they rock out in proportion to the cutoff.
P.S. Robert, I noticed in Stereophile's (or TAS) RMAF report that a very expensive tower speaker was using the Fostex FX120 as a midrange -- by any chance, did you happen to see/hear that when you were there?
Hi Robert, just found it, Feb 2009 "The Absolute Sound," bottom of p. 24 (picture is on p. 25) -- Room 551 $15k Von Schweikert Unifield 3, "a floorstander in two pieces with a Fostex midrange... open, neutral, lively and very dynamic."
(Sorry for being slightly OT but it hopefully relates to scaling a fullranger down to a midranger to get more dynamics.)
(Sorry for being slightly OT but it hopefully relates to scaling a fullranger down to a midranger to get more dynamics.)
Oh yeah, I heard them.
Remember them very well.
Beautiful veneer.
Mega-buck front-end, amps, cabling, etc.
Loud, yes, dynamic, no.
dipolar sounding, echoy, bouncy, if you call that open, lively.
Couldn't tell what was playing; someone else in the room said it was a new invention that made new instruments out of whatever was put into it. Changed clarinets into oboes, etc.
The room was near empty, people came in & left quickly,
I didn't get it, no one else I talked to did, YMMV.
Remember them very well.
Beautiful veneer.
Mega-buck front-end, amps, cabling, etc.
Loud, yes, dynamic, no.
dipolar sounding, echoy, bouncy, if you call that open, lively.
Couldn't tell what was playing; someone else in the room said it was a new invention that made new instruments out of whatever was put into it. Changed clarinets into oboes, etc.
The room was near empty, people came in & left quickly,
I didn't get it, no one else I talked to did, YMMV.
I listen to all kinds of music through my Weems pipes with RS 1354s. They've been my office room speakers for years. I've played with a lot of receivers - currently a NAD 7125 I picked up for cheap. I love 'em, but it's not a big room, and I don't get crazy with the volume. I'm listening to some old live Genesis right now, and it sounds great.
Finally, a subject I can actually be an expert on!
I listen to plenty of metal and fullrangers can do it, with caveats. Arguably, any good system should be able to play all types of music with equal abilty. Unfortunately, the recording practices in modern metal present a challenge in two ways. First, high compression (making all instruments and sounds appear to be equally loud) doesn't lend itself to fullrangers' inherent dynamics and ability to resolve detail. This is unavoidable if the recording sucks, but there is plenty of heavy duty music that is very well recorded (I have a list...). Second, since metal is a little
bass-heavy, lots of excursion will turn quickly into distortion. One may not even be able to hear small amounts of distortion in the actual bass region at lower levels, but it will effect the whole range of music including loss of imaging and depth, listening fatigue (insert crappy music joke here, guys), and appearing unbalanced in the all-important midrange. Again, this can be at low levels, turn it up and the problems become very apparant, put in some Harry Connick and the harshness fades. My solution is simple- large drivers are much less prone to trip over the demands that metal puts forth. The AN8 is a good start, but if you're willing to use a helper tweeter, step up to their 12" or even the Eminence LTA12. Yes, the enclosures are going to be a conversation piece to put it lightly, but I have a set of old wideband 10 inchers that fly through Cannibal Corpse and Meshuggah without falling flat on their faces. I also have a set of BHMkIIs that have a considerably harder time with such lively music.
A set of OBs with a couple of Alpha 15 inchers with the AN8s would really do the job. Plus, your freinds will say "FOUR 15s?!?!"
I listen to plenty of metal and fullrangers can do it, with caveats. Arguably, any good system should be able to play all types of music with equal abilty. Unfortunately, the recording practices in modern metal present a challenge in two ways. First, high compression (making all instruments and sounds appear to be equally loud) doesn't lend itself to fullrangers' inherent dynamics and ability to resolve detail. This is unavoidable if the recording sucks, but there is plenty of heavy duty music that is very well recorded (I have a list...). Second, since metal is a little
bass-heavy, lots of excursion will turn quickly into distortion. One may not even be able to hear small amounts of distortion in the actual bass region at lower levels, but it will effect the whole range of music including loss of imaging and depth, listening fatigue (insert crappy music joke here, guys), and appearing unbalanced in the all-important midrange. Again, this can be at low levels, turn it up and the problems become very apparant, put in some Harry Connick and the harshness fades. My solution is simple- large drivers are much less prone to trip over the demands that metal puts forth. The AN8 is a good start, but if you're willing to use a helper tweeter, step up to their 12" or even the Eminence LTA12. Yes, the enclosures are going to be a conversation piece to put it lightly, but I have a set of old wideband 10 inchers that fly through Cannibal Corpse and Meshuggah without falling flat on their faces. I also have a set of BHMkIIs that have a considerably harder time with such lively music. A set of OBs with a couple of Alpha 15 inchers with the AN8s would really do the job. Plus, your freinds will say "FOUR 15s?!?!"
I concur..
I think that larger fullrangers with a nice PA style tweeter shouold do the trick. Helper woofers? go for it.
I am young so I listen to alot of different music on my full rangers.
I personally feel that if well amplified, cabineted, etc that fullrangers can be great for metal, hard rock, etc.
the louder you want it though get into the bigger drivers.
later,
Clark
p.s. oh, and don't be afraid to go with a subwoofer. In my own designs, the subwoofer paired system goes by far the loudest, using a two way crossover for the full rangers. this goes a long way to giving the system adequate headroom at high volume. I am sure that the same would apply with the larger drivers.
I think that larger fullrangers with a nice PA style tweeter shouold do the trick. Helper woofers? go for it.
I am young so I listen to alot of different music on my full rangers.
I personally feel that if well amplified, cabineted, etc that fullrangers can be great for metal, hard rock, etc.
the louder you want it though get into the bigger drivers.
later,
Clark
p.s. oh, and don't be afraid to go with a subwoofer. In my own designs, the subwoofer paired system goes by far the loudest, using a two way crossover for the full rangers. this goes a long way to giving the system adequate headroom at high volume. I am sure that the same would apply with the larger drivers.
Doppler Distortion
One of the problems of running a driver full range or across many octaves: Doppler Distortion
At higher volumes the piston reproducing bass is pushed sufficiently forward and backward; it is also reproducing HF. The much smaller wavelength of HF is subject to Doppler shift, as the forward/back distance represents a large portion of their wavelengths.
Paul Klipsch used this fact to advocate horn loading to minimize excursion.
Syd
One of the problems of running a driver full range or across many octaves: Doppler Distortion
At higher volumes the piston reproducing bass is pushed sufficiently forward and backward; it is also reproducing HF. The much smaller wavelength of HF is subject to Doppler shift, as the forward/back distance represents a large portion of their wavelengths.
Paul Klipsch used this fact to advocate horn loading to minimize excursion.
Syd
Yes!
Multiple tracks/layers, clear, and distinct, without dynamic compression?
As much volume as you want, without the doppler shift problems?
Good front loaded HORNS!
I went from a PA system & studio moniters to a decent "fullrange" system, and CAN, and do listen to metal, symphonys, everything.
But fullrangers sure do have, uh, blaring ok, obvious, limits in this area...
Heard a good fivd-way horn system @ VSAC, and my world turned around forever...
There were some Fonkens playing down the hall, (which I was planning to build when I got back, had already bought wood).
My wife ask me "you're not really going to build those are you? What's the point?" When she heard the horns, there was this big smile, and "you can build something like this, can't you?"
I still like fullrangers for simple, low-level music.
And have a pair in the shop where I'm building horns...
r
Multiple tracks/layers, clear, and distinct, without dynamic compression?
As much volume as you want, without the doppler shift problems?
Good front loaded HORNS!
I went from a PA system & studio moniters to a decent "fullrange" system, and CAN, and do listen to metal, symphonys, everything.
But fullrangers sure do have, uh, blaring
ok, obvious, limits in this area... Heard a good fivd-way horn system @ VSAC, and my world turned around forever...
There were some Fonkens playing down the hall, (which I was planning to build when I got back, had already bought wood).
My wife ask me "you're not really going to build those are you? What's the point?" When she heard the horns, there was this big smile, and "you can build something like this, can't you?"
I still like fullrangers for simple, low-level music.
And have a pair in the shop where I'm building horns...
r
So do I for close in/monitoring, they sound real sweet, at low to moderate SPL.
As mentioned and observed by others above, when a small diameter driver is pushed, it gets non-linear quick, in addition to the inevitable effects of VC heating.
I haven't dusted off my Black Sabbath albums since 70's, so I am no expert in what qualifies as Heavy Metal today.
I'm guessing it is a broader different genre.
The way HM is recorded today ( I'm guessing ) probably has a dynamic range less than 10db in general and sometimes closer to 6 db. It looks like a square wave when visually displayed. Compare that to typical classical music with an extended dynamic range, but lower median.
I wouldn't expect a concert goer at a HM concert to be satisfied with a low SPL, so it is not unreasonable to assume the same applies for the rest of the time.
( If I wanted to go FR I would have to horn load )
Syd
I don't know how to put "FR" and "horn load" in the same sentence.HK26147 said:
Horn loading is narrow band by nature, doesn't want to go full range.
I've built a few back loaded horns, one that had blended into the TL nicely, so the back wave FR went flat to 40 Hz.
Tried horn loading the front, of course that raises the effiecincy too much of the front wave, and cuts off the top end, no need a tweeter, and a sub...
Seems easier, and more effective, to just build a FLH system designed as such.
And you end up with a far more efficient system.
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