Yes, I know. I regularly point that out myself, although if you'll permit a slight reworking, I think you'll find the major bass energy (& excursion demands) in rock / metal is in the 60Hz - 120Hz region.
I wasn't concerned about the Nait's 'sound' but it's output impedance not being ideal. Still, YMMV of course. GM's suggestion for a pair of 50s style Klipschorns strikes me as a good un, if you have the corners available.
I wasn't concerned about the Nait's 'sound' but it's output impedance not being ideal. Still, YMMV of course. GM's suggestion for a pair of 50s style Klipschorns strikes me as a good un, if you have the corners available.
Depends on what you want out of them but I have had great fun out of a pair of Karlson speakers - not the big 15" but the slightly smaller box (590mm high from memory - have build both sizes and much preferred the smaller) with 12" Fane speakers in them and hung upside down against the ceiling in my parents pub. At 100 watts RMS / 160 watts peak each it was enough power to drive the people out of the place with ear splitting levels. No need for a tweeter either. The eliptical slot makes for great dispersion of the sound and little beaming effects.
AM
It wouldn't be mine. Not for unsupported wide-band drivers reproducing metal anyway. Dynamic bandwidth is not one of their strong-suits, and tuning to 40Hz with a vented alignment will typically put maximum excursion ~an octave above this -right at the point where most of the bass energy in rock / metal tends to be. Granted, a lot of metal is heavily compressed (the Iron Maiden remasters for e.g., which have all but ruined the albums), but even so, you're going to run out of linear travel very quickly as soon as you crank the volume up, to say nothing of AMD kicking in. Better IMO, if unsupported wide-band units are desired & a v. large horn is out of the question, to tune a bit higher so you've got more dynamic BW available, rather than aiming for 40Hz & paying a heavy price elsewhere for it.
It is pretty easy to get most of the Mark Audios down to 40 Hz, particulairily inroom, but limited cone area will limit dynamics, impact, and volume. Still a single or twin set of EL70 can stun people with their bass capabilities. And in this recent post an interesting comment on the bass from a pair of CHR70Mk2.
We'll soon see how well A12 does in a big horn (actually Scott may have some comments from Kurt?), a beta build of Avebury R2 is pending.
dave
We'll soon see how well A12 does in a big horn (actually Scott may have some comments from Kurt?), a beta build of Avebury R2 is pending.
dave
Ah, well, that's a different story. Much more realistic. Actually, that's roughly what the Pencil 12 does. Just to stress, I don't think 40Hz anechoic (or lower) is impractical with widebanders, just usually not for something like metal / classic rock / orchestral etc. unless in something like a big back-horn to keep displacement down as far as possible.
There were a lot of recommendations to cross the FR driver to a woofer somewhere between 100-500Hz to take the bass excursion out of the FR driver. That means we need to use a woofer that is about 98db/w efficiency, if the FR is 95db/W, with an additional 3db BSC margin for the woofer. Any recommendations for woofers with such high efficiencies?
Would a more regular woofer in a tapped horn work? The upper range would be limited, maybe 150Hz max?
With the FR relieved of bass duties, what would the optimum enclosure alignment be? Sealed? Open baffle?
I'm finding myself in a similar path to heavy metal enjoyment - can't play loud and clean.
I find that speakers regarded as 'audiophile' or jazz speakers tend to sound harsh when playing metal - the guitars are too much 'in your face'. What is the cause and would the FR have a similar problem?
Thanks!
Would a more regular woofer in a tapped horn work? The upper range would be limited, maybe 150Hz max?
With the FR relieved of bass duties, what would the optimum enclosure alignment be? Sealed? Open baffle?
I'm finding myself in a similar path to heavy metal enjoyment - can't play loud and clean.
I find that speakers regarded as 'audiophile' or jazz speakers tend to sound harsh when playing metal - the guitars are too much 'in your face'. What is the cause and would the FR have a similar problem?
Thanks!
Front horns for both bottom end and wide-band would be the 'optimal' if done properly in terms of maximum SPLs and dynamic BW. If you want simpler, something like the Basszilla with monopole bass unit crossed to a wide-band on OB is good, or you could run the wideband unit sealed. Depends on the sound you prefer, how complex you want to make things, space & cost considerations etc. There's a huge variety of options available; same goes for drive units. Eminence are popular & not overly expensive. Fane make some excellent units. There are dozens of manufacturers so have a look around.
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What would be the main difference in sound characteristic between a open baffle or sealed for the wide band? Both should be relatively simple to implement? (compared to a BLH for the FR)? Which is better for metal? Haha.
I'm leaning towards a tapped horn for the bass unit for a closer match in efficiency with the FR. I'll look up Fane and Eminence, Thanks!
A true, straight front horn for mid-bass rocks.
YMMV, but I haven't heard anything that comes close,
and that's for any kind of music.
I'm calling mid-bass ~60 - 200 Hz,
(I'm using a pair of tapped horns for subs below).
And greatly prefer FLHs above as well.
But that's a system that plays full-range,
not a single driver system...
(and is complicated,
taking me years to build, not a weekend...)
YMMV, but I haven't heard anything that comes close,
and that's for any kind of music.
I'm calling mid-bass ~60 - 200 Hz,
(I'm using a pair of tapped horns for subs below).
And greatly prefer FLHs above as well.
But that's a system that plays full-range,
not a single driver system...
(and is complicated,
taking me years to build, not a weekend...)
Serenechaos,
I already have a transmission line subwoofer with a 15" driver for bass duties, so i'm trying to fill up the midbass duties now, as you said.
Do you think the tapped horn not suitable for this? I'm thinking 80Hz-200Hz for the tapped horn.
You mean FLH for the midbass, ie the horn is in front of the driver? What would the dimensions (mouth diameter, length) be for a 80Hz lower cutoff?
rhapsodee,
i'm not sure what you're doing--
using a transmission line as a sub;
and want to use a tapped horn for mid-bass?
yes, i think a front loaded horn is much better for mid-bass,
(and low-mid, and high-mid), than anything else i've ever heard.
horn in front of the driver.
this has turned into a long-term project though...
Eleven Horns - lower midrange horn.... 140 Hertz Le Cleac'h... for low-mid,
Eleven Horns - upper midrange horn.... 600 Hertz Le Cleac'h... for high-mid,
MyEmia for drivers...
(and a ribbon above 10k, so five-way).
same general idea for mid-bass, but no links to pictures.
i don't know what dimensions would be crossing over @ 80Hz,
smaller though...
depends on flare, and where you truncate it.
if you can live w/ the size (depth), i really like the straight horn mid bass though. even aa four foot horn length can be amazing w/ 15" drivers w/ sealed back chambers. ck it out in hornresp.
i'm not sure what you're doing--
using a transmission line as a sub;
and want to use a tapped horn for mid-bass?
yes, i think a front loaded horn is much better for mid-bass,
(and low-mid, and high-mid), than anything else i've ever heard.
horn in front of the driver.
this has turned into a long-term project though...
Eleven Horns - lower midrange horn.... 140 Hertz Le Cleac'h... for low-mid,
Eleven Horns - upper midrange horn.... 600 Hertz Le Cleac'h... for high-mid,
MyEmia for drivers...
(and a ribbon above 10k, so five-way).
same general idea for mid-bass, but no links to pictures.
i don't know what dimensions would be crossing over @ 80Hz,
smaller though...
depends on flare, and where you truncate it.
if you can live w/ the size (depth), i really like the straight horn mid bass though. even aa four foot horn length can be amazing w/ 15" drivers w/ sealed back chambers. ck it out in hornresp.
I play metal stuff on full range and it's bearable enough but not ideal. Here's a clip using cheap two ways on yubes.
If I use SS it's all cymbals and sounds really tinny, as per the A to B on youtube here:
YouTube - Dimmu Borgir - Transistor / Valve Audio A to B comparison
If I use SS it's all cymbals and sounds really tinny, as per the A to B on youtube here:
YouTube - Dimmu Borgir - Transistor / Valve Audio A to B comparison
Sure I play metal on my jx92s ML-TQWT's.
The problem isn't bass in any way, they are mindblowing when it comes to bass.
The problem lies more with the mid-range, it can become very pronounced with this kind of music. Simply to much energy... Maybe it's the recordings that are iffy? They can play anything but Heavy metal in general feels very "loud". It's very odd.
The problem isn't bass in any way, they are mindblowing when it comes to bass.
The problem lies more with the mid-range, it can become very pronounced with this kind of music. Simply to much energy... Maybe it's the recordings that are iffy? They can play anything but Heavy metal in general feels very "loud". It's very odd.
I have the same experience! Speakers that sound very neutral and transparent and generally deemed as accurate become ear piercing when cranking heavy metal.
I think it's just the nature of the electric guitar sounds and distortion used in production and mixing of metal songs.
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