I have been toying with the idea of building a couple of fullrange speakers because some of the opinions here of the benefits of such a system sound quite logical and good, if true.
The thing that really puzzles me is are you guys just kidding yourselves? After all, there are a few people around who think that crappy, hissing, scratchy vinyl records sounds better than a good CD. But then, that's their opinion but it's not mine.
If fullrange speakers are as good as they are made out to be, why hasn't the big manufacturers like KEF, Acoustic Energy etc, etc producing them? And manufacture is only left to a few, practically unknown names to the general public, to do so.
The Manufacturer's are in competition with each other, and I am damm certain that if one of them thought he could get a march on the others by producing such speakers, which could be cheaper and better than the competitors I am sure they would.
I presently have KEF Q55 speakers and Hypex amps and listen to a lot of classical music, but if someone could convince me that fullrange was the way to go and that I would get a better sound if I replaced my KEFs, I am willing to give it a go.
The thing that really puzzles me is are you guys just kidding yourselves? After all, there are a few people around who think that crappy, hissing, scratchy vinyl records sounds better than a good CD. But then, that's their opinion but it's not mine.
If fullrange speakers are as good as they are made out to be, why hasn't the big manufacturers like KEF, Acoustic Energy etc, etc producing them? And manufacture is only left to a few, practically unknown names to the general public, to do so.
The Manufacturer's are in competition with each other, and I am damm certain that if one of them thought he could get a march on the others by producing such speakers, which could be cheaper and better than the competitors I am sure they would.
I presently have KEF Q55 speakers and Hypex amps and listen to a lot of classical music, but if someone could convince me that fullrange was the way to go and that I would get a better sound if I replaced my KEFs, I am willing to give it a go.
cirrus18 said:
The new and better ZU
Its not strictly "fullrange" but I believe it does use one
Owner of 6moon is a fan of small tubeamps and fullrange and you will find some tested there
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/zu16/essence.html
Are you here to vent your opinions or are you here to learn? If the latter, invest $200 on a pair of Fostex FE207E's and a sheet of decent plywood. Put them in 35 liter BR's with 3"x 5" ports and give them a good listen.
Others will argue for a cheaper entry, but many of the cheaper drivers require some serious tweaking and smaller drivers won't have enough bass without more complicated cabinets.
This is not the pinnacle of full range performance, but should give you a good taste of what single drivers speakers are all about. Build these and then post your results in a month or two.
Bob
Others will argue for a cheaper entry, but many of the cheaper drivers require some serious tweaking and smaller drivers won't have enough bass without more complicated cabinets.
This is not the pinnacle of full range performance, but should give you a good taste of what single drivers speakers are all about. Build these and then post your results in a month or two.
Bob
cirrus18 said:
About what? Everyone knows there are compromises in every speaker system. The FR guys just like what they offer more than the alternatives. No mystery here.
Most manufacturers also need to print some data. A FR driver that goes from 45 Hz - 15kHz doesn't look good on paper. When you remove the grill, what no tweeter? They are never going to be a big commercial seller. FR drivers are for those who listen with their ears not their eyes.
If you want to make money (and the above companies do want to make money) then you have to make something that will appeal to the broadest part of the market. Most everyone has had some experience with multiway speakers. They are comfortable with tweeters and woofers and that's what they expect. There is also a perceived value factor working against fullrange speaker. To the average buyer, more drivers means he is getting more value for his dollar.
Sonically, there are a set of trade-offs to single driver design. The coherency and purity of most single drivers is a welcome trade-off for the cost of ultimate extension. Coherency isn't something you can really put a number on and stick in your sales flyer but extension is. Also, a lot (not all) of single driver designs need a more complex (read: more expensive to make) cabinets to produce the dynamics that multiway seems to produce.
Despite these disadvantages, there have been a number of successful fullrange speaker companies. Hornshoppe, Omega, Gallo, and the aforementioned Zu. So to overcome the adversities of the public eye and still enjoy critical and commercial success validates the approach in my book.
Oh, and a little off topic, Not many of my records are "Hissy", "Scratchy", or "Crappy" and a good many of them played on even my modest vinyl rig will walk all over any digital front end I've ever heard and I've heard some good ones.
Edit: Cal beat me to the punch!
gurley123 said:
Despite these disadvantages, there have been a number of successful fullrange speaker companies. Hornshoppe, Omega, Gallo, and the aforementioned Zu. So to overcome the adversities of the public eye and still enjoy critical and commercial success validates the approach in my book.
Oh, and a little off topic, Not many of my records are "Hissy", "Scratchy", or "Crappy" and a good many of them played on even my modest vinyl rig will walk all over any digital front end I've ever heard and I've heard some good ones.
Edit: Cal beat me to the punch!
Good points, and you're forgetting the biggest moneymaker in audio, Bose. They're crossoverless too. Crappy but nonetheless in the Full Range family.
And the best sound I've heard (and I've heard a lot of nice rigs) has always been from vinyl.
But the original poster seemed to be trolling as much as anything, so hopefully some other people will be able to get over their apprehension by reading this thread, elsewise, we've all wasted our time.
>>> The Manufacturer's are in competition with each other, and I am damm certain that if one of them thought he could get a march on the others by producing such speakers, which could be cheaper and better than the competitors I am sure they would.
I am not so sure they would. Marketing plays an important role in the way companies portray their products.
>>> When you remove the grill, what no tweeter? They are never going to be a big commercial seller.
I agree with Cal.
Everything is a compromise. Fullrange driver fans just like this set of compromises. We are not kidding ourselves in the least. We've listened and built and listened again until we get something we like best. You won't see me buy another Scan Speak mid woofer or Dynaudio tweeter anytime soon as long as there are fullrange drivers to choose from and creative cabinet solutions to build. And those complicated to build creative cabinets are another reason you don't see fullrange drivers on commercial speakers too. Just the latest titanium/berillium/diamond coated marketing hype in a basic box with a crossover that always needs tweaking. But hey, if you prefer that set of compromises than buy those speakers.
Godzilla
I am not so sure they would. Marketing plays an important role in the way companies portray their products.
>>> When you remove the grill, what no tweeter? They are never going to be a big commercial seller.
I agree with Cal.
Everything is a compromise. Fullrange driver fans just like this set of compromises. We are not kidding ourselves in the least. We've listened and built and listened again until we get something we like best. You won't see me buy another Scan Speak mid woofer or Dynaudio tweeter anytime soon as long as there are fullrange drivers to choose from and creative cabinet solutions to build. And those complicated to build creative cabinets are another reason you don't see fullrange drivers on commercial speakers too. Just the latest titanium/berillium/diamond coated marketing hype in a basic box with a crossover that always needs tweaking. But hey, if you prefer that set of compromises than buy those speakers.
Godzilla
Consider too, that gaining the most from the typical FR speaker "system" often requires unconventional components elsewhere in the chain. The market for exotic and semi-exotic audio gear is small indeed compared to the "mainstream" consumer audio market. Nevertheless, it is well served. I don't believe that these designers and small manufacturers are fooling themselves, and I am quite certain that their customers, who often spend tens of thousands of dollars to indulge their tastes, are fooling themselves. Suggesting that they are deluded, simply because mainstream manufacturers don't see a suitable return for playing in that field is nonsense.
Maybe so.
It's sure not the "ultimate."
"Coherency and purity" seem to be the arguments given, at the cost of "volume, dynamics, and frequency extension."
Then there's cost & ease of construction.
"Fullrange" (or wide range) seemed to be a "stepping stone" in the audio journey, until it was too limiting, but it remains a viable second system when used within its (volume, dynamics, frequency extension) limitations.
It's sure not the "ultimate."
"Coherency and purity" seem to be the arguments given, at the cost of "volume, dynamics, and frequency extension."
Then there's cost & ease of construction.
"Fullrange" (or wide range) seemed to be a "stepping stone" in the audio journey, until it was too limiting, but it remains a viable second system when used within its (volume, dynamics, frequency extension) limitations.
FR systems are not "just another" speaker system. They are a quest for what perfect sound means to you.
There really is a reason why people who have tried FR systems are never going to be satisfied with any multiway system regardless of cost. There's just something missing in those multiway speaker, something that is not just right.
I guess the reason people buy/build a full range system and continiously tweak it is the same as why some people buy a real piano when you can get a keyboard that sounds almost like any piano.
A multiway system just isn't "the real thing"!
There really is a reason why people who have tried FR systems are never going to be satisfied with any multiway system regardless of cost. There's just something missing in those multiway speaker, something that is not just right.
I guess the reason people buy/build a full range system and continiously tweak it is the same as why some people buy a real piano when you can get a keyboard that sounds almost like any piano.
A multiway system just isn't "the real thing"!
I think it's quite evident that the people that diss fullrange single driver speaker systems the most are quite often those that have never heard them.
Every speaker is a set of compromises in one way or another. It really depends on what is more important to you.
Further, those who arugue against full range single driver systems the most often overlook the fact that many of the adopters have or had multi driver speakers in some form or another before making the proverbial side-step.
Consider everyone in the world liking BBW's or blonde's with silicon bossoms or leggy brunette's. Despite logical ideals, many of us settle either for what we can get our hands on, or opt for one over the other due to subjective preferences. Ergo, it's impossible to get everyone to agree on the same set of beliefs and desires.
You are now returned to your scheduled programming.
Every speaker is a set of compromises in one way or another. It really depends on what is more important to you.
Further, those who arugue against full range single driver systems the most often overlook the fact that many of the adopters have or had multi driver speakers in some form or another before making the proverbial side-step.
Consider everyone in the world liking BBW's or blonde's with silicon bossoms or leggy brunette's. Despite logical ideals, many of us settle either for what we can get our hands on, or opt for one over the other due to subjective preferences. Ergo, it's impossible to get everyone to agree on the same set of beliefs and desires.
You are now returned to your scheduled programming.
This is a flame that reminds me of the old Mad board. As everyone else has said, if you have not heard a decent fullrange setup, find one and you will learn what you need to know.
If you think we are all nuts for still listening to vinyl. Again, find a decent setup and listen to it. And don't try listening to some scratched record you played on the fisher price as a kid. Get some good new or NOS pressing and compare it to the digitized version. I did that with Holly Cole's temptation on an $8000 digital setup an it was no better than my $2000 analog setup at that time. You choose. I really love getting the cd in the player and timing to the same record playing on the turntable and challenging people to tell me which is which. About 60% of the time they tell me the vinyl is the cd because it sound better. The only time it is obvious is when there is no music playing.
I've found with the all audio, that if you build your own, it doesn't much matter. I love all my children equally. Jordan fullrange MLTL, PHL - Raven MTM (very complex crossover), Axon line array. Too many projects too little time.
If you think we are all nuts for still listening to vinyl. Again, find a decent setup and listen to it. And don't try listening to some scratched record you played on the fisher price as a kid. Get some good new or NOS pressing and compare it to the digitized version. I did that with Holly Cole's temptation on an $8000 digital setup an it was no better than my $2000 analog setup at that time. You choose. I really love getting the cd in the player and timing to the same record playing on the turntable and challenging people to tell me which is which. About 60% of the time they tell me the vinyl is the cd because it sound better. The only time it is obvious is when there is no music playing.
I've found with the all audio, that if you build your own, it doesn't much matter. I love all my children equally. Jordan fullrange MLTL, PHL - Raven MTM (very complex crossover), Axon line array. Too many projects too little time.
Gee kids, those of us who frequent this and other forums know why we're playing in this sand-box ;
we love nothing more than to muse rhapsodic over our (current) personal favorite "FR/BW/SD" speaker system and associated "archaic / unconventional" components (analog vinyl or tape, vacuum tube electronics, hand braided silver interconnects, etc, etc, ad naseum)
well, OK, some of us might actually listen to the music, or even have other interests, also available via careful 'net surfing
just think of all the bandwidth that continues to be wasted debating this issue
we love nothing more than to muse rhapsodic over our (current) personal favorite "FR/BW/SD" speaker system and associated "archaic / unconventional" components (analog vinyl or tape, vacuum tube electronics, hand braided silver interconnects, etc, etc, ad naseum)
well, OK, some of us might actually listen to the music, or even have other interests, also available via careful 'net surfing
just think of all the bandwidth that continues to be wasted debating this issue
i don't see it as a flame...
as someone who's built i've-forgot-how-many "fullrange" systems it's a legitimate concern.
i find good vinyl just plain better than state-of-the-art digital.
no question, i've heard enough $100,000 + digital front ends that were easily bested by good analogue (master tape even better than vinyl).
the "fullrange" thing is different...
i wanted to buy into it...
i bought plans from a couple respected, well known sources, built from on-line sources, modeled & simmed, etc...
yeah, i "get it."
full range does have an "allure," for some types of music (simple, mostly), @ low levels, etc.
like late night, jazz, "girl w/ guitar," etc.
it's nice to have a simple system to enjoy simple music.
but i wouldn't want to limit myself to it being my only system either.
It just doesn't rock out the same, much less present a symphony with dynamics and color @ anything approaching "natural" levels" without clipping, and major distortion...
as someone who's built i've-forgot-how-many "fullrange" systems it's a legitimate concern.
i find good vinyl just plain better than state-of-the-art digital.
no question, i've heard enough $100,000 + digital front ends that were easily bested by good analogue (master tape even better than vinyl).
the "fullrange" thing is different...
i wanted to buy into it...
i bought plans from a couple respected, well known sources, built from on-line sources, modeled & simmed, etc...
yeah, i "get it."
full range does have an "allure," for some types of music (simple, mostly), @ low levels, etc.
like late night, jazz, "girl w/ guitar," etc.
it's nice to have a simple system to enjoy simple music.
but i wouldn't want to limit myself to it being my only system either.
It just doesn't rock out the same, much less present a symphony with dynamics and color @ anything approaching "natural" levels" without clipping, and major distortion...
I spent two months building my Nagaoka D-58es horns with Fostex Fe208e sigma drivers and T-90a tweeters. During the process I did wonder a few times why I choose this difficult path - particularly when trying to lift the darn things, and paint them. Surely a conventional box with a couple of jigsawed holes and a quick crossover would be easier.
But there are a few reasons why the end result is just fabulous:
1. My wife commented on the great look of the speaker, and is happy to have them as a furniture feature and casually talk about them to her girlfriends. This is some mean feat - her standards are high.
2. My father in law who has hearing aids commented about how clear the sound was. Not as muffled as his brother in laws speakers (who is also a conventional speaker DIYer)
3. A fellow music enthusiast who has a full home theatre rig with multiple watts, speakers, subs and dolby processors couldnt believe that music could sound this good FROM JUST 12Watts.
4. At night, when I want to relax, and I put on some favourite music and drift away, I dont fret of the sibilance and crossover distortion that used to niggle away at me from my last 2 ways. i just enjoy the music.
Fullrangers are a reason to be cheerful! Build them and you will see!!
But there are a few reasons why the end result is just fabulous:
1. My wife commented on the great look of the speaker, and is happy to have them as a furniture feature and casually talk about them to her girlfriends. This is some mean feat - her standards are high.
2. My father in law who has hearing aids commented about how clear the sound was. Not as muffled as his brother in laws speakers (who is also a conventional speaker DIYer)
3. A fellow music enthusiast who has a full home theatre rig with multiple watts, speakers, subs and dolby processors couldnt believe that music could sound this good FROM JUST 12Watts.
4. At night, when I want to relax, and I put on some favourite music and drift away, I dont fret of the sibilance and crossover distortion that used to niggle away at me from my last 2 ways. i just enjoy the music.
Fullrangers are a reason to be cheerful! Build them and you will see!!
"fellow music enthusiast..."
I've taken a pair of Nagaoka Super Swans w/ 108ES-RIIs to a few "listening party's" & had "enthusiasts" over.
I take them for granted as I'm so used to them, but everytime, everyone has had the same reaction, like, those funny looking things, with the little drivers...
And you brought that little home-made amp with what? Less than three watts?
Ok, be nice to the guy, we'll listen to them, then listen to the good stuff.
And after everything has been gone through, the swans & little SET amp end up being what gets listened to the most...
I guess that's why I don't want to get rid of them, they have some kind of "magic" to them.
--Even if they do often sound better with a tweeter (so how can I call them "fullrange")
And a sub (so how can I call them anything but "three-way")
fullrange (really means wide-range)...
I've taken a pair of Nagaoka Super Swans w/ 108ES-RIIs to a few "listening party's" & had "enthusiasts" over.
I take them for granted as I'm so used to them, but everytime, everyone has had the same reaction, like, those funny looking things, with the little drivers...
And you brought that little home-made amp with what? Less than three watts?
Ok, be nice to the guy, we'll listen to them, then listen to the good stuff.
And after everything has been gone through, the swans & little SET amp end up being what gets listened to the most...
I guess that's why I don't want to get rid of them, they have some kind of "magic" to them.
--Even if they do often sound better with a tweeter (so how can I call them "fullrange")
And a sub (so how can I call them anything but "three-way")
fullrange (really means wide-range)...
>>> blonde's with silicon bossoms
Love them!
>>> 4. At night, when I want to relax, and I put on some favourite music and drift away, I dont fret of the sibilance and crossover distortion that used to niggle away at me from my last 2 ways. i just enjoy the music.
Exactly the point and the reason i listen to wide range drivers in BIBs (plus supertweeter and sub). Drifting away is a long lost art nowadays.
Love them!
>>> 4. At night, when I want to relax, and I put on some favourite music and drift away, I dont fret of the sibilance and crossover distortion that used to niggle away at me from my last 2 ways. i just enjoy the music.
Exactly the point and the reason i listen to wide range drivers in BIBs (plus supertweeter and sub). Drifting away is a long lost art nowadays.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.